Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[kristi schrittwieser]

Is there anything you don't know Hank? Ive only been to field trials in Kansas. There are a few in Pennsylvania almost 8 hours away from me. There are very few field setters in the northeast of the US. My dog was the only field IS anyone had ever seen. Most people if not all didn't know the dog existed. I live about an hour outside of Manhattan. There are English Setter Clubs in NJ. When you went to the FT what did you think of the dog. Aside from the Irish field dog which is totally different would you like to see the field IS in America succeed. The ISCA is making it very difficult. Also as you probably know no AKC dogs can have FDSB dogs in there pedigree any longer unless they are AKC registered. So the gene pool is even smaller then it was when they started.

[eva ciechonska]

I have the William Thompson book "The New Irish Setter" 1954 edition. Joe Jnr is mentioned on p23 as is his race with Gladstone. No mention of either on p43. Henk do you have another book of Thompson?

[kristi schrittwieser]

Eva does it show Joe Jr's pedigree. I dont have the book.

[eva ciechonska]

Kristi, no it doesn't. It mentions Elcho being by Charlie out of Nell and gives their parentage but no mention of Joe Jnr's dam other than she was the Campbell's 'native setter' Buck Jnr. Henk must either have an earlier edition or another Thompson Book. We must await Henk's response.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Eva, are American/European bred working setters aloud to particate in European trials. That is going to mix everything up, lol.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Yes but you mentioned The Modern Red Setter. Last one provides information on the history of the American Red Setter movement.

As for your post hereunder there is no replyfunction there, so heres one.

The Wall between AKC and FDSB, for Irish setters only, is not about ancestry, but about where you were registered in 1975 (date of division on request of ISCA). This means the field IRS was split. Although ALL descend from the fifties-scenes. Rare lineage is locked up in FDSB, not accessible for either AKC or UK or FCI. Where-as nearly all IS cultures need refreshment in narrow gene-poles. In my eyes this is very unhealthy for future.

[Henk ten Klooster]

This reply is on the American books. Don't fall asleep it is full of facts, maybe the reason many a setterhistorian/fancier has never realized the importance of the information.

References were made by me from The Irish Setter in Word and Picture library of congress catologue card number 54-8437 (Denlinger's, Richmond Virginia 1954) and The New Irish Setter same author (New York 1973-seventh printing) (first print was 1954) ISBN 0-87605-165-4.

If you compare both books, most clear is that the focus on what is called Native Setters in TISIWAP is bigger. Lots of very relevant information are not in TNIS. And thats what you note, Eva. Here you see how a piece of history is "forgotten". Native Setters' info simply proves that there is quite some GS/ES blood right at the start of official IS registry in the USA!!!! And from there everywhere by the way.

This info was the Holy Setter Grail of Red Setter Pioneers. They knew and searched for descendants of the Campbells who could tell them about Joe Juniors days. They found one and interviewed him at very old age. This is the piece of history nobody apparently wants to know about, certainly not leading ISCA circles of those times.

What Red Setter pioneers did in the fifties, was going back to what they called The Old Religion. Its the religion of Joe Juniors days. On their way to discover the truth they discovered a lot more, hidden deep down in archives or old books, but a lot was dug up as well by interviewing old people.

The other setters and remarkably as well pointers had "lended" best IS blood, they discovered. Thats why the fifties outcross was called in an article Retrieving back a heritage from a cousin .

[kristi schrittwieser]

Henk you have an incredible amount of information. You have documented so much.You have connections with the NRSFTC you should help them with all the problems they are having ISCA. I'm sure they have presented much of this to the AKC but I'm sure you would be quite influential. I know that in 2002 a man that had once been very involved in the NRSFTC, his dogs were AKC registered , is now on the board of directors for ISCA. His dogs compete in all the trials. They usually win everything unless there are other field dogs involved. In 2002 he sent a letter to ISCA stating that the NRSFTC was mixing dogs again and was ruining the breed. He suggested along with the Vizsla club that they not be a loud to compete in the nationals. There are also AKC registered AF dogs that they want out when they run in AKC trials. According to my breeder they will never see eye to eye. I think they will.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Your better friends tell you the truth, if you mean that by helping than I did, Kristi.

But quite a few people -as documented- prefer phantasy of purity over truth, as documented here and other topics. Maybe they think phantasy of purity makes a better promotion?

More realistic is the Irish setter (all colors) is like Irish stew.

I know scenes you describe its about divide and rule the field. Its not in the interest of dogs, because narrow gene-poles because of people policy generates dogpain.

[eva ciechonska]

Thank you Henk. Kristi mentioned TNIS because she had found the book for purchase on the Internet. What she needs to find is TISIWAP, also by William Thompson. The book could be out of print. As you say, because TNIS is smaller it 'omits' relevant information of historical value. Must try and obtain TISIWAP. Interesting that both books were published in the same year though by two different publishers. Probably Howells must have wanted an abridged edition. Doesn't help researchers of IS history.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Omitting relevant information helps building an illusion of purity, Eva/Kristi. And this information was VERY relevant.

If you analyse British authors on the many outcrosses in their culture like bloodhound, flatcoat retriever (hidden for forty years!!!), pointer documented here in another topic, you will not find much of it in most relevant breedbooks of your culture.

You have been active in Irish Wolfhounds Eva is there still attention for the outcross with Great Danes by Florence Nagle (Sulhamstead)? She was by the way against introducing ES blood in IS, but according to Marr Sharpe did that.

The American NRSFTC scene was an exception, the outcross done in the fifties had support of geneticists, breedhistorians, authors, journalists etc. They published and discussed it open.

Wether or not in FDSB circles later on (one is documented in The Modern Setter) some not openly crosses were done, is just like all other official registry a matter of speculation.

[eva ciechonska]

We all know about the bloodhound crosses but didn't know about flatcoats.
I have never been active in Wolfhounds. I handled afghans for a friend years ago and learnt as much as I could about their ancestry. Shrouded in mysticism I thought them quite beautiful but never wanted to own one. Your point about loving IS and afghans was quite true. They are both aristocrats of their group. We have well know breeders of show Irish who breed afghans as well though not to each other I might add!!! You are also right that you do not need to introduce afghan blood to produce the coat and the action all you need to do is to breed selectively. Trimming and presentation play an enourmous part and an American dog presented the UK way would look totally different. in any case the construction and conformation of the afghan is very different to the IS and one could never be mistaken for the other.
Incidentally I had always wondered why Mrs Nagle never ever won a cc with any of her IS though she was incredibly successful in the field and her dogs were handsome. She was far too single minded not to succeed in anything she put her mind to. I think that her show interest lay with her Wolfhounds and her Irish were for working. She was greatly respected in both breeds. It is an anomaly that I would love to have explained.