Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[kristi schrittwieser]

The IS hunters felt very ashamed of the IS in America. As you can see when you look at US IS with the long hair and lack of abilty to run they knew within a matter of time the breed would be entirely off the field. When they outcrossed them with the english setter they got the high tail. The english setter also gave them speed, agility, smarts and a stauch point. The AFBP's which are very popular in field trials in the US were always looking for a high tail and a staunch point. Trial judges were also partial towards a dog with a high tail that could hold point. Some of the hunting dogs don't have as high of a tail but compared to Europe it is still high. The AKC will not register them as IS's. The hunters want the dogs to be registered as IS's. They feel the US show IS is a replica of the IS. They basically feel the show people won the breed.That is what most of the argument is about. American hunters say the show IS is not an IS because IS's hunt. They feel the IS is a hunting dog and thats what they have an IS that hunts. Some of the kennels will refer to there dogs as IS's some will refer to there dogs as IRS. Apparently most field trial people feel the hunters and AKC will never see eye to eye.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Ned LaGrange of Pennsylvania spent a small fortune purchasing examples of the last of the working Irish Setters in America and importing dogs from overseas. With the blessing of the Field Dog Stud Book, he began an outcross to red and white field champion English Setters. The National Red Setter Field Trial Club was created to test the dogs and to encourage breeding toward a dog that would successfully compete. Prior to 1975 a relationship existed between the AKC and the Field Dog Stud book in which registration with one body qualified a dog for registration with the other.
In 1975 the Irish Setter Club of America petitioned the AKC to deny reciprocal registration, and the AKC granted the request. It is claimed, by critics of the move, that the pressure was placed on the AKC by bench show enthusiasts who were unappreciative of the outcrossing efforts of the National Red Setter Field Trial Club, as well as some AKC field trialers following a series of losses to FDSB red setters. Working Irish Setter kennels today field champion dogs that claim lines from both the FDSB dogs and AKC dogs.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Nearly all AKC and FDSB field IRS share forebearers. Their foundation bitch was AMFCH Askews Carolina Lady, descendant of pre war Sulhamstead imports. She and descendants were mated to post war import AMFCH Sulhamstead Norse d'Or, so bred back to Sulhamsteads. Norse shows a high tail. Thats recorded history, rest a guess.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Thanks, I was wondering yesterday about making the distinction between the AKC and non AKC Irish/red setters, but thought better of it - thats another whole can of worms :))

[eva ciechonska]

Christine,thank you, very clear and informative.
May I ask as there is such a distinction between the AKC and non AKC Irish/Red Setters and you say these dogs should really be thought of as "American Red Setters" or American Field Trial Dogs" and as the standard varies hugely from those of all internationally recognised breed of setters and given that many of the pedigrees cannot be verified, then would there not be be moves about from the AKC to force the FDSB to alter the Breed name to one or other of the above. And could, infact the FDSB be forced to do so.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

The AKC cant make the AFDSB do anything. The US has several different registries and these are just two of them.
In any case the main club for the non AKC red setters, the NRSFTC regards their dogs as being more of a genuine Irish Setter than the AKC show dogs :))

[eva ciechonska]

Margaret, responding to your point below.
Ok. Could or would the Irish Setter Club of Ireland not intervene as the AFDSB standard of the Working style differs on many points from that of the ISCI. Equally, if many of the AFDSB dogs are effectively hybrids, woild that not be a case for argument?

[Christina Gray]

Hmm, Eva, tough question. The only precedent I can think of involves equine registries. A few years back the Oldenburg Verband (Oldenburg registry headquartered in Germany) split with their American branch in a flurry of lawsuits, insults and general embarrassment for all concerned. The Oldenburg Verband attempted, in court, to block the ISR (new name of the American Branch) from using both the terms "Oldenburg", the brand (literal brand, here, the one that goes on a foal's hip when it is accepted into a studbook), as well as logo.

The Oldenburg Verband lost through some technicalities, and one of those was that they had created a precedent of allowing the ISR horses to be called "Oldenburgs".

I'd imagine on this one, ISCA is picking their battles and its probably not worth the time and effort to pursue.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

I dont think the AFDSB have a working standard. AKC doesnt have working standards either.
Currently the IRWSA in the US have produced a working standard which is different from the Irish one, and so far have not replied to correspondence from the breed club in Ireland on the subject
Working setters in the US have developed in a different direction over more than a century,and its too late to turn the clock back

[kristi schrittwieser]

Many hunting dogs have been crossed with other hunting dogs they were able to keep it under the table. The IRS could not do that. The breed changed immensely anyone would know that they outcrossed it dog.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Actually the AKC had nothing to do with any of this. It was the ISCA who told the AKC to stop the registries and they did. The ISCA does not want the IRS competing in their AKC events. Most of the field trail people compete in other trials against pointers and ES. You would never she an IS show dog in any of these events. The working IS is still very much of a minority breed. They really have to proof themselves in trials to gain back the respect of other hunters. They have a hard time because they don't have enough dogs to enter in the field trials compared to the ES and AFBP's

[Margaret Sierakowski]

I thought that what ISCA mainly objected to was that the red setters were not pure Irish Setter, but were of mixed breeding, not only the openly acknowledged outcrossings but also illicit outcrossing, and what was behind some dogs was not what was in the recorded pedigrees. See the whole Albert Collins saga and the dogs who were deregistered by AKC
But Londa should be able to explain all that much better