Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Mrs Nagle made up around 15 FTChs, but never made up any of them as ShChs.
Looking at the photos of her beautiful dogs, its hard to believe, but the type in the show ring was moving away from what she bred, and she wasnt the kind of person who was going to shift from what she believed to be right, just to win CCs
Where breeding Irish Setters was concerned she stuck firmly to her principles, and finally gave up on the breed when the working and FT dogs also began to mdiverge from her type
I find it incredibly sad, if there were still Irish Setters being bred that looked like Mrs Nagle's dogs, I would be first in the queue for one!
Sometimes I think there are still echoes of the type of her dogs to be seen in some IRWS,who have Sulhamsteads way back in their pedigrees

[colette tuite]

Margaret when i can get my scanner working i can show you my 6 year old working irish setter Bradford Boy at Porschet(Porschet Lovebird x Tiqun Shannon) who could be a full brother of the Sulhampsteads Sheilin D'OR etc.

[colette tuite]

There has not been a dual Champion Irish setter in the past 50 years in fact i am not sure that there has ever been one? The closest was perhaps Peter Heard's Ch Joanma's Adriano who was a uk show champion who i believe wun one open stake and was awarded 2nd in the open stake which would have made him up .Unfortunately breed history did not get made as the judges witheld the first prize!!!!!!!!!!! So particularly unlucky!!

Another dog who I believe came close was Field Trial Champion Ridgetor Firbanks who was a show bred dog owned by Professor Beazley who I think also got 2 challenge certificates in the show thus missing out on one challenge certificate.

Champion Astley's Portia of Rua was regularly run at field trials starting from the age of 9 months (Shap 1976) right through till she got her qualifier while running at the Scottish Gundog field trial in 1980) so she was'nt just a dog who ran a qualifier!.She was regularly in the second round at trials on both partridge and Grouse.

So the challenge is still out there for some enthusiastic newcomer!!!!

[Margaret Sierakowski]

" learnt about the overbreeding, rearing and re-homing of working dogs in Ireland."

What is overbreeding?

[eva ciechonska]

"What is overbreeding?"

Taken from your comments on page 34 and in particular June 20th.

"........There are simply a lot of working setters in Ireland, you only have to look at the volume of ads on Dondeal to get an idea of how many"

Would there be a better word for this? Please advise.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

I dont think this is "overbreeding" . There is simply a healthy number of litters of IRWS being bred in Ireland at the moment. Which is good for maintaining the working side of the problem.
Although I would like toseemore diversity in the breeding of them
If a couple of working IRWS from Ireland per year get rehomed in the UK, this isnt exactly a big problem :))

[eva ciechonska]

From your comments and also Trudy's comments on rescuing and re-homing working Setters in the UK the implication is that supply exceeds demand, certainly with the IRS otherwise why your point as mentioned above.
The situation was very similar in the 70's and early 80's with the show Setters and the 'for sale' columns where full of puppy ads and the Rescue Schemes were inundated........would you not call that overbreeding

[Margaret Sierakowski]

But the rescue schemes are not being "inundated" with dogs from Ireland. There are simply some dogs being brought over, and some people choose to make a big issue out of it.
We had an IRWS that came into rescue in the UK a few years ago that was one of the worst cases of crualty that I have ever seen, but I dont infer from that that ALL IRWS in the UK are cruelly treated, starved and abandoned.
And although the number of IRWS being bred in the UK has dropped so low that its a matter of concern for the gene pool, we still get dogs coming through rescue - the fact we get IRWS needing rescue has nothing to do with "overbreeding" , its due to unforeseen circumstances and the breakdown of homes

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Does anybody know how many setters from Ireland are rehomed in the UK each year? I asked a couple of people privately and the figure that was suggested is about 25 dogs a year, from all four setter breeds, the biggest group being working English Setters followed by Irish, my guess is a couple of IRWS per year, and Gordons very rare
How does that compare with the total figures for setters rehomed in the UK each year?

[kristi schrittwieser]

Dont want to make a US but it is similar here. english first, pointer second IS third and very few gordan or IRWS.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

"here are many theories on the origins of the IS but the accepted one is that it came from the large Land Spaniel. "The most part of their skynnes are white, and if they are marcked with any spottes, they are commonly red and somewhat great therewithall"....."

One cant breed a solid red dog from parti-coloured dogs. So although there were undoubtedly setting spaniels behind the early setters, somewhere there has to have been a solid coloured dog that produced a solid red. It's anybody's guess what breed of dog that might have been
Interestingly I heard quite recently that some foxhounds were solid red in the eighteenth century, and given that there were foxhound/pointer crosses and pointer/setter crosses, that is a possible origin.
Also there were black and tan spaniels going a long way back,which mated to a red and white dog, could genetically produce solid red (even today Gordons occasionally throw up a solid red puppy)

[eva ciechonska]

Yes indeed, there are many theories on the origins of the Setter as we know it and what was termed a 'setter' in the sixteenth century was in all probability the job description not the specific breed. The fact that you were recently told about solid red foxhounds in the eighteenth century, and given that there were indeed foxhound/setter crosses throws another theory into the pot. It is still accepted though that the Setter came from the Land Spaniel, whatever it's evolvement along the way. It is also accepted that the IR&W came before the IR and there are still very many Red dogs with much white on them, more among the working than the show dogs. Lets not forget the 'shower of hail' either, though puppies born with these marking do seem to lose them with their adult coat, which is why it is not widely seen.