Media highlight Irish setter as a sick animal

[Henk ten Klooster]

The image of the Irish setter got another big blow in Dutch media this week because a breeder was fined to pay 6000 euro for selling and subsequently denying primary epilepsy in a dog. Nearly all media, from national television to dailies and social media focused on this. Last year it was only television, now the impact is way broader. What do you think, is there a way to get out of this misery? And how?

http://www.eenvandaag.nl/binnenland/42311/bom_onder_fokbeleid_

[Henk ten Klooster]

Sorry guys, time to end this debate. For all who chose to play the ball, thanks for your contributions. Hopefully it will be of help for our breed.

[Georgina]

Howard, sorry to hear this but could it be that epilepsy is a recessive gene like PRA, I don't have any medical background but worth a thought.

[Angela Clarke]

Before this debate closes I would like to add that as Abbie has blood tests every 4 months, and due for one in 3 weeks time that I shall be investigating who would like to test her blood and send a sample through the vet at that time.

PS. Anything I have changed because of Abbie, it has been worth it as she is the loveliest loyal and affectionate dog in the world. That is why I have got another two younger than her.

[Henk ten Klooster]

By pvte mail many requests were in to re-open this debate. Who am I not to do that? Posts like the last one  alone make a decision to close a topic unwise. Sorry, I did it for reasons of time and Susans fear that the debate was getting out of hand.

I have no time to read and edit posts to see whether or not contents are within parameters of the topic and aimed at the ball in stead of persons. So please, if only for posts like those of Angela, will you keep in tune with the topic and refrain from personal attacks? Thanks!

[Ann Millington]

I understand your desire to close the debate, Henk, it was going round in circles.

May I offer a little IRWS input here, please?  I turned to IRWS after a decade in happy, trouble-free Irish Setter showing and breeding through interest in the 'rescue of the IRWS from extinction'.  Right from the start when there were only 10 IRWS in the UK, owners (and they had to be nuts to take on an exercise like this!) supported the health committee as soon as the Breed Club was formed.

Because we were few, and worried that inherited disease would result from the necessary close breeding, everyone was open and honest about the health of their dogs and interested and helpful about the health of others' dogs. - it gets more difficult the more breeders and owners there are :o(

Here's an example: Two itters were affected with the non-clotting blood disease vWD -  50% of these puppies bled to death  Owners had their stock screened and were aghast to find a percentage of their stock lacked enough clotting agent.  Immediately the Breed Club, raised the funds and the DNA samples for research, producing a breed specific DNA test - all within 18 months.

An arrangement was made with the KC to refuse registration to litters unless both parents are clear of vWD.

Result?  There is no vWD in UK IRWS litters today.

 

Epilepsy in Irish Setters is a MUCH bigger problem - the breed population is huge and number of breeder/owners enormous.  It will take leadership to get the breed to work together, but that's the only way to go

Concentrate initially, to get the cold facts collected in one place - the number of cases, the pedigrees,  draft the graphic inheritance paths and when you have the data (and funds) put it in the hands of a reputable research team.

This is the primary role of the Breed Club - not putting on shows or field trials, they are secondary.  I know many Irish Setter Breed Clubs work hard on breed health, is it not time to pool resources, internationally? - in an energetic, purposeful way? 

It is possible to conquer these problems once the first steps have been taken, and the determination  to succeed is displayed.

Squabbling among each other, pointing fingers and appearing complacent, doing nothing is simply ammunition gifted to the critics.

Our Breed is worth more than that.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Good post. Waste of time pointing fingers, criticising others, futile arguments, getting defensive - just get on and do something about the problem. Preferably jointly with other breeders, but if you cant get others to work with you yet,  just take responsibility for your own dogs and your own breeding, and decide that you are NOT  going to continue to breed more litters of puppies where there is any risk of epilepsy. That if you are buying a new puppy from somebody else, you will make sure that it is from epilepsy free lines - and dont shirk interrogating breeders before you buy.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Ann wrote: Is it not time to pool resources, internationally? - in an energetic, purposeful way?

Good post Ann! Your question: YESYESYES

[Eva]

Hi Henk, as I said before I think it was good to post this Tv-link & to inform ES people. But I think if someone starts a discussion it is very important to edit comments and supervise the matter. So many discussions go out of hand, people start to gang up together or become shockingly rude. Please have an eye on it.....

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thanks for your advice, Eva. I will keep an eye on it. For the few that do need an eye:

Stay within parameters of this topic.

Refrain from personal attacks.

Emotional? Leave the computer, react later.

Provide sound argumentation, a few posts look puzzles

Don't forget: we all share a passion for Irish setters!

[Susan Stone]

I appreciate your reply here, Cornelia. but it also sets alarm bells ringing in my head. Yes, what you say about possible pre-events to Joy and Chiron developeing epilepsy is correct. But it still comes down to the fact that the so-called fitting threshold in both your dogs was lower than in non-fitting dogs. In both cases the vet's diagnosis was idiopatic epilepsy and from what I know today the lines are not free of epilepsy.

Looking at Sam's pedigree (you can find it on the web) you will find some very strong resemblences to the lines of 'my' cases. But having said that - which lines are definitely and 100% free of epilepsy? At the time of breeding all may be well, only to find 2 years later that reletives have become sufferers of the disease.

So do we stop breeding from anything that has the least connection to epielepsy? In that case we either face breed extinction or we head for the next bottle-neck in the breed with more inbreeding depression and possible other side-effects - even if we achieve the goal of non-epileptic dogs.

Epilepsy is most likely a polygenic disease, ie multiple genes and environment influence. Scientists suspect mutliple modes of inheritance for epileptic disorders (there is not just one 'Epilepsy'), different breeds are likely to have different modes of inheritance, but also difefrent modes within one breed! Very few breeds have a simple recessive inheritance of epilepsy (I think the Juvenile epilepsy in the Lagotto was found to be recessive, but I'd have to check).

I contacted experts on epilepsy (Prof Leeb) and experts in genetics.  The recommendations they give for breeders are the following:

Do not breed from an affected dog.

Open information between dog breeders & owners. Should a dog you used in a breeding programm develop idiopathic epilepsy after he/she has been bred from, then inform all owners of his/her descendants.

If you know of or suspect epilepsy in any of your lines, then endeavour to breed to non-epileptic lines (we all know how difficult that is!).

Allow stud dogs to sire no more than two litters when young and then wait for five years before using the dog

again.

Avoid high COIs in matings - the likelyhood of the same genetic makeup of 'bad' genes being duplicated is higher in dogs with a high inbreeding coefficient.

Avoid popular sire syndrome.

...

Sure to be more but I must stop now.

Thank you Henk for allowing the discussion to continue.

 

 

 

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Another very good post, thank you, Susan

[Fran Griffin]

I second that !