Old map of Ireland showing "Adams and Eves" of Irish setters posted

[Henk ten Klooster]

Setterfanciers interested in history may enjoy a card of old strains of red (and white) setters in Ireland on the website www.Iersesetter.com , home of the Foundation for original setters. Click the English flag and menubar White memories of times goneby. Of - Nederlands- Vlekjes uit een Ver Verleden.

This map shows where main founders of the Irish setter in the eighteenth and nineteenth century were situated before, around or just after start of official registry, shows, field-trials. Most of them played a prominent role in the making of the Irish setter like the socalled French Park Setters of the French family De Freyne (later French). These are nowadays still in direct tail male lines of descent, most show.

The map was made by Dutchman J.A. (Jan) Hesterman probably end twenties last century or beginning thirties. Hesterman played a prominent role in Dutch setterhistory as breeder of O’Callaghans. This together with author/judge/breeder captain G.J. Verweij (Setters en Pointers, Amsterdam 1949). Both continued individually, kennelnames O’Cuchulain (Hesterman) and Of Sutherland (Verweij).

Hesterman was a keen student on early setterhistory. He was an expert on paintings, himself having restorated together with his father the Nachtwacht (Nightwatcher) of Rembrandt van Rijn. In some of his eight generations pedigrees all Irish setters got a color of their direct line of descent. He could trace them right back to the ones mentioned on this card.

The map shows that original red (and white) setters had a lot of color variations varying from shower of hails (small white dots all over the red coat), red and white to nearly complete red. This is why the map is placed on the menu White memories of Times Goneby, focusing on Harry, a red and white born from red parents and his daughter Pallas Green Harriet, the first Dutch bred setter ever to win the title of Irish Field Trial Champion for his owner/trialer Jim Sheridan (Craigrua).

Combining sources like this one makes it possible to trace a tail male main ancestor line currently topping the working scene like French (Urtis) (red) and Harry (red and white from red parents) straight back to Ch Palmerston of whom experts said the line was extinct. In case there are fanciers interested, a follow up with details can be posted.

Henk ten Klooster

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Red and whites cannot produce solid red unless mated to solid red

[Henk ten Klooster]

Ch Frisco's pedigree shows when red and white becomes red. This is 22 generations tail male line from Sh Ch Caspians Interprid. Some ancestors came from red and white families like those of Lord Rossmore. It underderlines Margaret's post. Other than most historians assume (a cross to a solid colored other dog made the solid red) it seems to show selection was enough and white disappears at the ends (head, tail, feet).

The other way around story (Harriets sire red and white Harry at generation 29 direct tail male from Palmerston) is interesting. It shows the only direct traceable lineage (tail male) in working Irish setters to 19th century. It becomes more and more solid red until halfway restoration of working Irish setters begins (fifties last century). IS since generation 19 dive up in both databases of IRWS and IRS.

So probably not hybrid power, but simple selection.

[Henk ten Klooster]

For fanciers on this list wishing to trace their red Irish setters ancestry back to red and white days here a road to hitch hike into the past.

A majority of show dogs nowadays traces in direct tail mail lineage directly back to Ch Frisco (pedigree given above). Quite a few of the breeders provided on Frisco's pedigree can be found on the card of old Ireland strains, see www.Iersesetter.com

The direct tail male line concerned from now to times of Frisco is:

Sh Ch Caspians Intrepid
Sh Ch Danaway Debonair
Sh Ch Kerryfair Night Fever
Sh Ch Sowerhill Sahib
Sh Ch Wendover Jeeves
Sh Ch Wendover Ballymoss
Sh Ch Wendover Vagabond
Ch Wendover Beggar
Beau of Wendover
Kerry of Wendover
Ch Padriac of Matsonhouse
Ch Grellan of Matsonhouse
Ch Shaun of Matsonhouse
Sh Ch Rheola Bryn
Don Sancho
Rheola Maro
Ch Rheola Toby
Ch Clancarty Rhu
Arentsburgh Duke
O’ Callaghan’s Fermoy
Ossory
Ch Frisco

[Henk ten Klooster]

For the story the other way around: red stays red but becomes red and white as well, fanciers may appeciate this direct tail male line. Like most old pedigrees, the eldest lineage (1,2,3,4) is an option based on more sources. Other historians say the line was not leading to Palmerston, but the first champion Bob. Both were red within parameters of the IRSC breed standard (Palmerston with white on chest, chin and head).

1. Ch Palmerston
2. Ch Count
3. Ballingarry
4. Muskerry
5. Jerker
6. Galtee
7. Royal Sovereign
8. Ch Kerry Palmerston
9. Galahad
10. Gorse of Auburn
11. Rhu Gorse
12. Ulster Hero (Easter Hero)
13. Ir Ch Connaught Hero
14. Hymany Whiskey
15. Ir Ch Uiscebeatha of Derrycarne
16. Moyola of Moyna Abbey
17. The Blacksmith
18. Tirconnail Boyd
19. Fastnet Rock
20. Moanruad Rock
21. Alla Rock
22. Ir FT Ch Red Revolution of Fallows
23. Knockmore Danger
24. Mullaghanois
25. Ir FT Ch Caphard Shane
26. Ruella Major
27. Ir FT Ch Sheantullagh Captain
28. Int. FT Ch Sheantullagh Rampant
29. Harry (red and white)/French FT Ch Oslo du Val de Loue (red) sires of respectively
30. Ir FT Ch Pallas Green Harriet (red and white) and Int. FT Ch Urtis de la Chaume di Rigault (red)

[Dee Rance]

This carries on from the Intrepid Lines
Warburtons Rattle
O'Keefs Beau
I don't think anything is known after that. It is interesting to see that the bitch lines on the latter few animals go to Palmistone and Townsends Quail for many lines down. These two dogs are the ones that most go back to especially the O'Callaghan's lines

[Henk ten Klooster]

Dee, the card dives a lot deeper in history and so is the pedigree of Frisco above, establishing tail male UK winning showlines are (as well) from red and white ancestors. LIke those of Miss Lidwell and Lord Rossmore.

So say 27 generations ago, Caspians Interprids ancestors were red and white (as well as red).

The pedigree card of Frisco provided above is for about the same as provided in the latest book (O'Dwyer: The Irish Red Setter), but more details added by the maker of the card making possible to trace color origins.

As far as I know more white than allowed in the standard dived up in Frisco's line in the UK. But no complete red and white like Harry. Thats why this research on pedigree generation lines why how when did it become possible?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Gennadi wrote: Harriet sucess could be explain easily by well known fact of Hybrid Power

Hybrid power is probably the first reaction of a lot of people. By mouth. In case you type it down on a public website like this one, you should be able to document your statement. On what generation exactly do you think hybrid power is in?

[Margaret Sierakowski]

One could trace modern show bred IRWS back to the pretty much the same dogs, however it doesnt mean they share the same working ability. Its the selection from good working dogs in more recent generations that largely determines the level of working ability in current dogs, and the ,lack of selection for working ability that can wipe it out in just a few generations.
The IRWS are only 8 to 10 generations away from the revival of the breed using working dogs in the 1970s, and through selective breeding for either show or field trial,, already the spectrum of working ability runs from very high to virtually none

[Henk ten Klooster]

"You can find it" or "I think" does not substantiate YOUR point: hybrid. Try again.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

I wouldnt regard these long pedigrees too seriously anyway. . The probability that they are reliable all the way back is not very high :))
Harry

[Dee Rance]

That could be said for anything, we only have the word of the particular breeders that ALL the information is correct. (That can be difficult these days with some 'bad' breeders.) We could go round and round the same old things, but still come out with a huge great question mark, as to the origins of the breed, whether it be IRWS or IRS.
I have gone back to 1860's on the sirs lines, although the information I have doesn't take colour into account...or working ability.
Not sure who it was that said, that you can't get Red out of Red and White, surely that is exactly what happened. Selectively breeding from the animals that had the most 'RED' in their coats. This was, I think, done for 'fashion' rather than 'work' but the ability to work was held in some lines, and others were taken to the 'extreme' the show dog that we have now. But a few of them can work all be it without the style of the 'true' working dog. And a few still have large amounts of white on them, personally I like a lot of white about my dogs, not that I have any on these modern dogs, 30 years ago I breed 'one' with a lot of white about him. He was by a Corneven Dog out of a Raycroft/Hatsbourn Bitch (and the bitch could work)

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Genetically it is not possible to breed a solid red dog from two red and whites.
If the original setters in Ireland were red and white, the only way to get a solid red dog was to mate a red and white to a solid coloured dog of another breed,and that is probably how the red Irish Setter originated.
If you bred solid red to red and white, the puppies will be red but will carry the sp gene ,
If you breed a red that carries the sp gene to a red and white, you will get some red and white puppies. If you breed two reds that both carry the sp gene , some of the litter will be red and some will be red and white. That's how Harry was produced, both his parents were reds who carried the sp gene