Palmerston line?

[Michaela]

5 puppies of the litter between my Irish Setter male dog Lohmann’s Milan and the bitch Lohmann’s Krambambuli at the Kennel Wenzl’s Master of desaster have more or less a white line on their heads. Somewhere I’ve read something of the “Palmerston-line”. The white line on their heads could be a criteria of their ancestry going back on of the founding dogs of that Irish Setter race Ch.Palmerston, KCSB 5138. I’ve read in the book “Pointer und Setter” of Waldemar Marr, that Palmerston was a single-colored Irish Setter with a white blaze on his head and that he was a strong inheritor. A sign of a closer relationship to that ancestor Palmerston could be the “Palmerston-line” – a white line on the heads.
So I have read only that Palmerston was a “big Champion with many titles” – so my question is: what titles? Working titles or Showtitels? And the other question is: could anyone show my more pictures of Palmerston on which you can see the white blaze?

[Michaela]

I forgot one important question ;-) Could these little white lines on the head of the puppies count as "Palmerston line"?

[Melinda Auld]

Palmerston is one of the earliest dogs on record as an Irish Setter. (At least, I think that's the case.) Most modern dogs can easily trace their lines back to him. Whether they carry the white marking on the head is largely irrelevant, though it is said that Palmerston did have white on his head. For example, my dog can be traced back to Palmerston - no white markings on his head. My bitch can also be traced back to Palmerston - and she does have a white mark on her head.

There is a good website where you can trace your lines back to Palmerston. http://setters.applegrove.net/

As for his titles, I'm not certain. I have read that he did win a few shows, but I'm not sure if they had the same sort of titles back then as we do now?

There is a little bit about Palmerston in Eve Gardner's book, Irish Setters Today.

[Michaela]

so okay, I'm so sorry - now I found more about Palmerston etc. here http://irishsetters.ning.com/forum/topics/old-map-of-ireland-showing

in first time I was a little bit excited about, because I've read on another setter homepage that these is a special sign according to the ancestry ..

so it seems NOT to be something special according to the ancestry, because Palmerston is nearly an ancestor of all modern Irish Setter lines .. but okay it's a very nice sign on the little heads ;-)

sorry for my stupid question

[Susan Stone]

no such thing as stupid questions;-)))

[Susan Stone]

First of all congratulations on your litter!

The small white strip is seen every now and then and I'm afraid to disapoint you in saying that I would not consider this a proof of descendance from Palmerston. A small bit of white on solid coloured dogs is not unusual and occur in areas that a last to be covered by the spead of coat colour during developement stage, ie toes, front of chest, top of head, sometimes tip of tail. I believe it does occur more often in working strains. I believe the 'Palmerston strip' referred to a narrow strip of white running from forehead down along the nose. At least, that is what I was told years ago...

quote from Gilbert Leighton Boyce 'Irish Setters' on Palmerston:
(p.30) "Pride of place is often given to Ch. Palmerston bred by Cecil Moore of Omagh, County Tyrone. It is impossible, I would think, to find any specimen of the breed who does not go back to this dog on many lines. He was not a worker, and the requirement of a field-trial qualification had not been introduced in those days. Nowadays, under British Kennel Club rules, a dog who won only in the show ring as he did would be entitled to be called show champion but not full and unadorned champion, which is in gundogs a higher title. He did very well at shows, where his then unusually long foreface and rather narrow skull were much admired."

The picture I have seen of Palmerston shows what today looks like a caricature of a setter. Maybe that was due to the freedom of the artist..?

[Henk ten Klooster]

>The picture I have seen of Palmerston shows what today looks like a caricature of a setter. Maybe that was due to the freedom of the artist..?< wrote Susan Stone.

His son Ch Garryowen was model for the first conformation standard for Irish setters, so yes looks seems right. In the past, students of the breed were asked to explain his good points on the basis of THAT picture. Remember the topic French bitch..... How and with what pictorial material are showjudges educated nowadays?

[Susan Stone]

just managed to look at the photos... they look so sweet with their white stars:-)))

[Dee Rance]

Many setter puppies come with the ''Palmerston'' star, I have in the past had a few myself.
I think if you go back far enough in NEARLY ALL Irish Setters pedigrees that they go back to Palmerston and a bitch called Townsend Quail and there were a few lines of him (Palmerston) being mated to his daughters and many other bitches, he was a very prolific boy...but he was at the back of most of our setters, I presume he worked as well as being shown, because he has the title Champion and not just Show Champion, but not sure if they were just called Champion anyway in those days..
Sweet babies though, personally I love all the white that comes out in some of the modern lines...

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Palmerston wasnt shown until quite late in life. The story passed down about him was that his first owner used him for shooting, but he wasnt much good, so his owner decided he was to be put down, and was going to drown the dog. But a Mr Hilliard offered to buy him and the dog went into the show ring and was then widely used at stud. Pictures from that time show quite a strange looking dog with a long head
Information from Millner's book .

[Dee Rance]

He was used at stud on anything that could move....

[Henk ten Klooster]

There never were any Palmerston stars Dee.

[Catherine Carter]

My first Irish had a white Palmerston line and I loved it! A lot of judges loved it too....when he sired a litter many of his sons had the white line too...I also had a great grand son of him who had retained the white line on his forehead.....I love all white marks on Irish...I have not got any at the moment...I hope it reappears in my next litter.