Information wanted

[Silvia Lindner-Rae]

Hi,
can you help me with information as to what is neccessary for the Belgian Champion - a friend of mine would like to know and we could not find anything.
Thanks!

[Laura Kolbach]

i know, just wanted to give the precise name as well :-)
we all know how different the trial rules in europe are, i did not intend to hurt anybody with my comment! hungary for example only has normal FTs for professionals, nothing "easy" for beginners or "qualifying trials".

[Laura Kolbach]

we have ability tests for young dogs, then derby field trials up to the age of 2 i believe, but the latter was only introduced this year (at the pointer club where we train/compete) and any result gained there does not make you eligible for a working certificate. and finally we have the "normal" field trials, with no distinction to amateur or professional and only these give you a working certificate. not an easy life here :-(
also we have field-water tests and also those combined with forest stuff but i was never involved in those and can't comment on them.

[Susan Stone]

Frances, where can I get a list of dates with amateur field trials in belgium for our breed?
Thanks. (No, I'm not a professional;-)))

[Susan Stone]

Thanks, Frances. Maybe I could combine a trial and a show?

[Silvia Lindner-Rae]

Camilla, I agree with you - we are all in FCI, but we all have different rules for the national championships. Something should be done, so that the qualifications are the same.
Some countries hand out their championships without working tests, some with, but done anywhere, and otheres require the working test or FT in their own country - now that is absurd, I am sorry. To become a Swiss champion I would have to do the FT in Switzerland. My bitch has the working trial in her home country, and I see no reason to do the same thing over and over again in the different countries. The trial is enough for the Inter champ - so what do the other KCs want? In my way of thinking it is all about money, but they do not gain, they loose more, as many of us tell them good luck and goodbye and stay home. Switzerland is not interesting to me, same as any other country with those requirements - Sweden being one of them. Thing might change, if I win in the lotto and I can empoy a trainer/handler for FTs - but I fear this is wishful thinking on my part.
But I am not the only one that thinks like this, the result being, that less and less setter owners show their dogs in these countries unless they belong. A shame really!

[Susan Stone]

Silvia, you will be pleased to hear that a petition will be put to the AGM of the swiss setter & pointer club SPCS in mid Feb 09 suggesting to ease off this rule a bit...
You are quite right that these rules make the swiss title practically impossible to obtain - I find this a shame as it means that many foreign exhibitors, like you, are not interested in coming to our shows.
Actually, the test does not have to be done IN Switzerland - but it must be a test ORGANIZED by the SPCS - but as there are practically no field trials in Switzerland (with the exception of mountain trials). So the trials are run in Italy or France... making it all the more illogical;-)

Camilla, what you address is not really a bonus: we have CACs in every class now plus Junior-CAC and Veteran-CAC which means that with low entries you may suddenly find EVERY dog entered has won the CAC or Reserve-CAC... I find this has greatly downgraded the value of the CAC.

[Susan Stone]

Quite right - and some are quite restrictive, but not all.

So we have the ironic situation that we can win loads of CACs... but never make up a swiss champion due to the very restrictive rule of the 'very good' at a field trial run by the SPCS.
(OK, there are exceptions...;o))

[Christiane Lohmann]

Correct me if I am wrong. You have in Sweden UK = junior class (dogs up to 2 ys.) and AK = open class (for older dogs), where it should be judged ONLY for performance. And then, if you get a 1st in AK you may start in VK (winner class), which is comeptition stake. You can start in lavland = fields or fjell = mountain or skog = wood.
I see a difference between a scandinavian 1st price in AK and a EXCELLENT on a FCI trial. Chasing is regarded more from practical hunting point of view. Or behaving after birds fly off is handled VERY strict in central europe ! One step forwards is OUT.
I have seen several Swedish Show Champs on SISK homepage. Are they 'no one' ? I thought them to have a true national champion title.
And how about the CAC ? On the world dog show it was awarded twice for each sex. One for internediate/open/champion class and another one...for working class. It was detailed desxcribed by Kenneth Edh from SKK during the judges conference, but was that only special for the WDS perhaps ?

Finally, Germany will follow the new FCI rules for Inter Champ, that is a field trial result must be at least GOOD on a CAC-FT. I would like to hear more about this CAC on trials and what one can buy for it;-)))

And last but not least CQN is for a slip of at least 10 minutes of highest qualification (excellent) on a open FT, but dog fails in training aspects (chasing birds, chasing after shooting etc.). This is a kind of 'certificate of merit'. It does not count, but you can be proud of it;-))) Can be given to several dog in one trial...but is rare.

[Laura Kolbach]

double CAC award was only for the WDS. otherwise only given from jaktklass.
still don't understand why CQN gives you a champion title in Belgium.

Christiane, where can we read about the new Interchampion rules (official version)? I read on one of the Austrian Setter club sites (http://www.setterpointerverein.at, check under news) that you can choose the option of NOT having a working trial from now on.

[Silvia Lindner-Rae]

Laura - the Club page gave the FCI- issue from their magazine!. There are two different Interchampions: one with the working trial and one without - theoretically a dog can be IntCH and IntSHCH - it is like the Hungarian Show Champion, only that title was cancelled, wasn't it?

[Christiane Lohmann]

Leen, before we run into misunderstanding:
I meant that a CQN does not count for any kind of working title !
Surely it is great to have a CQN on any dog and it shows that this dog has the ability to WIN every FT competition, when trained properly.
And yep, the CQN therefore is definately enough to qualify for any show champion title and I would every day prefer a CQN- dog before a 3rd price-dog ;-)))

Never would I minimized a CQN !!!

About the CAC's on FT, I was questioning, as it looks like politics goes faster than reality. A CAC for FT makes only sense, when it is a ticket for a NATIONAL working champion..and I wonder how many countries give national working champion titles that ask for a CAC-win or placement in a CAC-FT.

@ Laura
I think I read it on FCI hp. Aside their new Int.Sh Ch, they still have the old Int.Ch., as before with a 3rd price on trilas, but recently WITH a working test run with a CAC on national terms. And who gives CAC's on FT in europe ??? I wooooonder....
Surely germans GS club does, but who else ?

[Susan Stone]

So far I have not found any details about the new Int. Sh. Ch. title on the FCI website - but I may be looking in all the wrong places. Nor have I received any official information from the swiss kennel club.

As to trials with CACT (Certificat d'Aptitude au Championnat de Travail) - well I don't know about other countries but as far as I know all the swiss field trials for Setters & Pointers are with CACT - the CACT is needed for the swiss title of working champion.