Are Irish Setters intelligent?

[Susan Stone]

...and if you aswer "yes, they are!!!" then how would you personally define intelligence in a dog?

I'm sure all have heard of the analysis done by Ben & Lynette Hart of the Veterinary School, University of California. Irish Setters were not considered the brightest... but I am uncertain how this research was undertaken.

[Susan Stone]

This reminds me of something I read recently where humans were tested for their ability to remember an excercise. One group was given an problem to solve and they reached a solution. The other group was given the excercise but was interrupted after a certain time and was not allowed to go back to finish it. Some weeks later both groups were questioned about the exercise: many of the first group had forgotten what it was about. But from the second group (unsolved problem) more people remembered the problem. This research is said to show that solved problems can be forgotten, whereas unsolved problems continue to take up our thoughts. Anyone into psychology? This was termed the Zeigarnik effect.

I have since wondered if this work for dogs also? If I break off an excercise that did not work out, will the dog's brain continue to work on it and when he is asked to do it again, he is then willing and also capable????

[ursula wilby]

I have broken off the excercise when I feel I am ALMOST there, but still feel the dog does not quite understand. A couple of months of rest from that particular excercise...and starting again, a lot of times...its better than when you left off.
I have felt it was rather due to trying to do too much in one go.
I split everything up in to tiny parts, but not all excersises lend themselves fully to this method.
It is mainly in these complicated cases that the "break" has worked.

[Susan Stone]

I think you are right with as you say complex exercises, where frustration can set in and it is better to give it a longer break. I had more basic exercises in mind: a straight forward dummy retrieve, but the dog does not try hard enough and is not working seriously enough, like watching birds or butterflies (yes, mine do!). I call a stop and put the dog back in the car. Next day the dog is far more willing to fight for that dummy!

[ursula wilby]

Fran, it is certainly not just in the UK that border-collies are dominating the obedience-rings in the championclasses!
This is unfortunatly true EVERYWHERE.
Also, yes you CAN make up Ob. Champions one after the other...BUT you will just about be forced to stop there if you dont have a border-collie. I wrote a long article about this in the swedish kennelclub magazine and lets put it like that: I was not the most loved person among BC-owners...

What you are talking about (agressive behaviour etc) it true here as well. But I feel you may have been looking at far too few dogs, or in fact only ONE type of dog.
None of my Obedience-champions have/have had any weird behaviour and are 100% well behaved "privatly".
Unfortunatly no setter will ever work in the "slightly mad and VERY focused" way that a BC will, so even I will be joining the BC-crowd eventually...but dont dismiss all the work and effort of competing in Campion-class as repetitive actions. The programs are very complicated and the commands that the dog has to diffirenciate between MANY! :=)

Ursula
(who has beaten many a good BC with her "stupid" setters over the years)

[Susan Stone]

I'm enjoying this discussion and am once again learning about different views and ideas. Thanks for joining in!

Pity I can't discuss all the points mentioned, we'd never leave our computers:-)) but I would like to take up the 'slow learners - non forgetters' and the 'quick learners - forgetters' theme. Isn't this a bit unfair on the quick learners? Because:
I assume that we all enjoy a dog that learns a new trick quickly and easily. The dog does it a few times and we consider he now knows the trick. Then we leave it at that and commit a typical error: we do not repeat the excercise often enough because we assume the dog can do it! I believe the process of learning a trick should not be confused with being able to perform the trick on command. The solution is practice over 1000+ times.
On the other hand the dull-witted dog will take a lot longer to learn the trick. By repeating the learning steps more often than for the quick-witted, this dog is automaticaly receiving his practice of 1000+. Not so the quick witted dog - 'cause he could do it!' So who's fault is it, if the quick-witted dog forgets? The trainers!

Fran, you mention the learning dip. To me this is something very typical for 'operant learning' or maybe the english word is instrumental conditioning, where the dog associates between his own controlled actions and the reaction of his surrroundings. The dog is learning about the consequences of his actions.
This means he will test and try to find out which is the quickest way to success. Even if the dog learns what we want him to, he will still go through this learning curve of trying a different path to success. No need for the trainer to be upset, as long as you know what is happening. And of course 'success' to the dog should be the same 'success' we are aiming for. That is where we often go wrong...

[ursula wilby]

So why should you be the only one not stuck to the computer Susan?????
Actually the slow/quick learner and the fact that we spend more time with the slow one is something I wrote just a bit further up, and this is the reason for me beating a lot of BC's. They would get massivly high points and then...wow...flip out totally...
Where as my setters would be reliable.
"We will not do it at collie speed - but we WILL do it!"
Except one of the setters...the most fun one to compete with, Kelly. Great dog and a VERY fast learner! No problem at all to reach champion-class, but hang on...who is that suddenly dashing off in the distance?
Chasing a runaway bucket in the storm for god sake?
Right in the middle of her bloody programme? Zapp! There she is...back again continued as if nothing happened.
I NEVER spent enough time teaching her.
She just took constant chances and most of the time they were correct. But not quite allways...
Fantastic dog that :=)

[Susan Stone]

Thanks Fran - and I can not imagine who should be worried about the tests you give your dogs! They sound like fun and mental stimulation combined. I'm sure many an oldie would benefit from this kind of mental exercise.

I agree, most of these so-called 'intelligence tests' are no good!

[Laura Kolbach]

just bought the hungarian dog magazine for october and guess what it says on the front... "the master of the IQ tests" - and yes, there are articles of the border collie... haven't read it tough but will let you know if something makes me angry :-) (now back to my flat-cleaning and hoping to find my camera...)

[Monique VIRY]

Bonjour,
Je me permets de prendre part à la discution. Malheureusement je maîtrise mal l'anglais alors je vous donne mon avis en français. Pour moi la définition de l'intelligence est : la capacité à répondre de façon adaptée à des situations nouvelles, de discerner les liens de cause à effet.
Je prends l'exemple de ma chienne Amara, chez nous en promenade elle ne voit aucun gibier à plumes car il ya abondance de renards et blaireaux. Elle a fait un field d'initiation à 6 mois, deux autres un an plus tard et a enfin obtenu son TAN l'année suivante. Elle n'a jamais vu d'oiseaux entre temps mais a essayé différentes techniques d'appproche : saut sur l'oiseau,arrêt puis saut sur l'oiseau...et enfin arrêt et elle a bloqué l'oiseau. A chaque essai elle a cherché une solution qui la satisfasse et nous également. Mes 2 chiennes progressent toujours ainsi, elles essayent différentes solutions pour arriver à un résultat.
Que dire en plus de leur intélligence du coeur????

[ursula wilby]

Ahhh well THAT explains it all!
:=)

[ursula wilby]

Anyone out there that can give us a quick translation? I get the "Bonjour" but am a little bit uncertain about the rest...:-)

[Monique VIRY]

Merci Fran, faute de maîtriser l'anglais, nous les Frenchy n'osons pas participer aux forums.

Sorry Ursula, I dont speak english.

Monique