A good hip score?

[emma bell]

I just want to call on the knowledge of you who breed as to what is classed as a 'good' hip score?

 

Currently, Darcey has an endorsement on her, restricting me from breeding - well, I could but I wouldn't be able to KC register them.

 

When I bought her, her breeder said that she would lift it but only if she received a good hip score.

 

I'm only wanting to breed one, maybe two litters from her but I will be really knarked if she turns round and says no!

 

She's booked in for April so I just wanted to know in advance!

 

Thanks everyone :)

 

 

[Sheree Parrish]

I'm sorry too Eva, I took Hen out for a walk and was taking on board your words, I think the disappointment and the worry has taken it's toll on me, I should have worded my replies more cautiously.  At the end of the day, we all want to help Emma and I should have thought about the effect my replies would be having on her.

[emma bell]

oh sheree don't worry, i appreciate your honesty and eva thank you for your kind words. you have both being really helpful and i wouldn't want you to feel guilty sheree for being honest.

 

i am concerned, as there are risks with everything but after speaking to my husband i've had to put it in prospective. my eldest daughter has had so many anesthetics and sedatives because of having had large amounts of surgery through her life - ironically for hip displacia - and if i can do that, then i should be able to do it with darcey.

 

i have spoken to my vet again this evening and he said, that if it would make me feel more at ease, he is prepared to let me be there whilst the procedure is carried out.

 

again, a sincere thank you to you both :)

[emma bell]

Oh Sheree, that must have been awful! Poor little man :(

 

I must admit, it does seem risky putting them under anesthetic for something that, health wise, has no benefit to them at all.

 

Darcey isn't booked in for hers until April so I think I may do some research and see if there is anywhere that does them without anesthetic. Surely, they can't refuse to do it without as there is nothing surgical taking place?

[Sheree Parrish]

Hi Emma...I feel really guilty, all last night I was convinced I was going to lose him, (I got the one that I lost back for 24 hours before he died), thankfully he seems back to normal this morning, but I'm not willing to have another go...maybe if he has to be put out for a procedure that he needs but not just to satisfy me wanting to have it done.

[emma bell]

Thanks for your advise Jonola :)

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Emma, I dont have a problem with pet owners or first time owners who want to breed . Everybody , even the most famous breeders, had a first litter!

Sometimes the first litter is an accident, sometimes it wasnt as well planned as later litters, sometimes the breeder isnt aware of possible health problems in either dog or bitch lines

And it is generally harder for first time breeders to find good homes for their puppies than it is fort breeders with a well established reputation.

Nevertheless some first time breeders do get it right. Susie Lyus  is  a pet owner and first time breeder who came on this list asking for advice , and initially got some discouragement, but she also got some sound  advice and support. Susie was willing to listen and take advice. She didnt rush into breeding from her bitch, she got all the required health testing done, she asked for suggestions about a suitable stud dog, and chose to use a good dog owned by an experienced breeder who was able to give a lot of advice right through from mating to whelping.

The result has been a nice litter of healthy puppies that any breeder could be proud of

Please have a look at Susie's page  on this list, and also on Facebook, and  read the posts which will give you some idea of the process she and her family  went through to get the litter they wanted

Maybe Susie and her mother could talk to you on the phone. And of course one of the best people to talk to is the breeder of your bitch. Many breeders are only too happy to give you advice and support when breeding from their lines, they know what would be a suitable stud dog and what to avoid, any health problems to watch out and test for, any history of whelping problems in the bitch line etc

But take your time, do your research, listen to advice preferably from more than one source

If you want to breed for the show ring, its a good  idea to have had some experience of showing, but there is always a place for breeders who dont have a strong interest in show dogs, but still want to breed healthy sound good quality dogs with nice temperaments.

So dont be discouraged, but dont rush into anything either,get your health testing done, choose your stud dog very carefully,  ask for advice and be willing to listen

[eva ciechonska]

I agree with Margaret but would like to add the question of on going responsibility for the puppies you breed.  Emma  would you, for instance, be prepared to take a dog that you have bred back if the owner decides to part with it.  Would you have the facilities to do so, bearing in mind that this could, very well be an out of control youngster the owner has given up on.  If you cannot then this youngster would end up on the Rescue Scheme or, even worse, be passed from pillar to post.  It is something you might wish to give serious thought to. Every time you have a litter you put stress on a bitch.  If you do it because you want to keep a puppy from her than that would be understandable.  If you are happy with what you have produced then would you want to have another litter from the same bitch.  There is a lot of joy in having puppies, great satisfaction, hard work stress but no great financial reward.  You say that you would be really narked if the breeder refused to lift the endorsement so did you buy this bitch specifically to breed from?  At the moment you are worried about a good hip score but that is only the start of it.  Margaret's advice is very sound.  There is much food for thought.

 

[Margaret Sierakowski]

I think I would also suggest doing some reading before even thinking about looking for a stud dog.

A basic text book about genetics like Malcolm Willis (the more practical one written for dog breeders, if you find his big book too much), and a good guide to breeding, mating , whelping and raising puppies. I really like Dieter Fleig's book, The Technique of Breeding Better Dogs, and still go back to it each time I breed a new litter. And I'm sure you have some good books specifically about Irish Setters like Eve Gardner's book.

Mary Roslin Williams's book Advanced Labrador Breeding is not only about Labradors, the principles of breeding for excellence apply  to  any dog breed

And autobiographies of dog breeders can give some useful insights into the pitfalls and problems as well as the successes. I like Friederun Stockmann's classic book, My Life with Boxers. For sheer tenacity and singlemindedness she was amazing,  through breed politics .  world wars and the Depression, times with no money and no food to feed her dogs and having to sell her best dogs to the US so she could keep her kennel  going,

And I'm sure other people can suggest some more books to read about dog breeding

[Susan Stone]

I must agree with Margaret:

 

If we are honest we must admit that some first time breeders actually do a far better job than some who have been in the breed for donkey's years!

 

 

[emma bell]

Thank you for your advise and encouragement. As jolona points out, i do have 4 children but they are at school at i'm at home full time.

 

I mentioned breeding from the word go with my breeder, not for a 'business' but because I always said I wanted more than 1 irish but would like to have the second / third from our own bitch if possible.

 

I will certainly read the books that Margaret has recommended and will be on here constantly for advise!

 

Darcey is only young and just finished her first season, so there is no rush in making a decision, i just don't want that decision to be taken away from us, if that makes sense. Saying that, if she had a terrible hip score and/or failed any other health tests, then there would be know way i'd even consider breeding from her as that would be irresponsible.

 

I think the problem is, some more established breeders forget that they had to start somewhere!

 

I think to say:

 

'that if you have only this one Irish and have 4 children is it wise to consider breeding from her at all?'

 

is rather patronising to be honest!

 

I would never make any decision about any of my dogs without fully researching and getting advise first.

[Dawn Riddell]

Emma, you are lucky, in that you have got the benefit of the advice of some of the worlds, most experienced and respected breeders here on this site. They are worth listening to, you would avoid some of their mistakes and achieve your goal without some of their heartache if you choose to heed their advice.

 

Nobody likes to think they are being told what to do, but if you make use of the gifts you are being offered here you will be the winner in the end. Reconsider your attitude to these knowlegable experts, for that is what these people are, otherwise you will be the loser.

 

Incidentally, your breeder is a member of this site, you could open a discussion with her and ask for her guidance perhaps, to mentor you in this venture.

 

Finally, I read several times in this thread, various posters acknowledged the fact that they all had a first litter, all started somewhere. I'm not a breeder, but I have had Irish Setters of both sexes for 37 years, and you do pick up rather alot as you go along, over time. Not deliberately trying to be patronising, but rather trying to help you to see what a resourse you have here.

 

Regards, Dawn Riddell.

 

PS I'm in the North East too, if you want to meet up at some shows, I'd be glad to see you and talk about the dogs.

[emma bell]

As i pointed out in my post, i am more than happy to accept well intentioned advise.

 

I will of course be in touch with kirsty but also wanted advise from others.

 

As for my 'motives', Darcey is a family pet, not a breeding machine nor a show dog. We wanted the option of breeding from her, as we wanted more setters in the furture. My mother in law has a lot of experience with setters so i also have her support.

 

Thank you, everyone else, for your helpful advise and thanks Margaret for recommending those books, I went on amazon last night and ordered all of them! I think they should keep me going for a few weeks! :)