Hip Scoring again!

[Sheree Parrish]

I didn't want to hijack Emma's thread so started a new one.

Whilst at a show on Saturday, and also from a reply on Emmas thread, it would appear that vets in some countries will take x-rays for hip scoring without the use of any medication at all.  In view of what happened to Henry last week I would be keen to find out more about this so I can check with my vet as to whether he would be prepared to go down that route...(I did ask him previously and he said you can't get an accurate reading that way), but if others are able to do it and I can find out the methods used, then I would happily approach every vet in the country to see if I could find someone that would indulge me.

I wondered therefore, if anyone has a vet that has x-rayed the hips for scoring purposes without the use of any meds, would you please let me have details and either a contact email address or website, regardless of where you are in the world, if I can get enough information about their procedures, and they are keen to share of course, then I will be very happy, and it may mean a lot more dogs get scored if I can pass on any info I get.

Many thanks in anticipation :-)

[eva ciechonska]

Sheree. Have you considered the holistic approach? I am not a Homeopath nor do I pretend to know very much about it, apart from the tried and tested remedies that we all use, but there are Homeopathic vets out there. Do they x-ray dogs or do they recommend that you go to a conventional vet for these procedures. It would be interesting to know.

[Sheree Parrish]

Thanks Eva...I never thought about that option, I will certainly do my homework and keep updating with anything I find out.  I've just emailed the British Association of Homeopathic Veterinary Surgeons so will let you all know if I hear back from them...good call Eva :-)

[Sheree Parrish]

Thanks Camilla, I always hip score mine but Henry was sedated last week and we nearly lost him, hence my need to find somewhere that doesn't medicate at all.

[Sheree Parrish]

Thanks Tracy, and yes I am in the UK :-)

This is the print-out the vets gave me so that I could warn any vet that may treat him in the future:

Dog premedicated with Medetomidine and Butorphanol (0.3)mg each, for hip scoring and x-rays - prior to induction of anaesthesia HR taken and found to be bradycardic (30-32 bpm) with rapid, relatively shallow breathing. MMc remained pink and CRT < 2seconds throughout - possibly arrythmia under sedation with some beats showing 2 in rapid succession - this did not seem typical of sinus arrythmia given the rapid breathing. Decision made not to anesthetise dog given elective nature of the procedure, sedation reversed, HR incerased to 43 bpm, berathing rate and depth returned to normal and no eveidence of arrythmia (sinus arrythmia only).

 

[Howard Glansfield]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-2995.2010.00540.x...

I thought the above was interesting.Especially the conclusions paragraph.

I am glad Henry is ok now.

I would add that he is allergic to the drug on  his ID disc.

[Howard Glansfield]

That's interesting Sheree because Ellie was sedated a few weeks back and was quite unwell afterwards.She took a long time to recover but I don't know what sedative was used but I now intend to find out.

[Maggie Smith]

Thats a worry for you sheree - I have no answers for you. Did the vet explain the drug side effects and what they would recommend in the future?

[Jo parsons]

Sheree I am a vet nurse so should be able to help you with your question! In this country it is illegal for an animal to be held for an X-ray (for health and safety reasons). All vets/nurses should be at least 2 metres from the primary X-ray beam. I would question any vets that would ok for your dog to be held in place for an X-ray as this is not good practice. In America it is still common practice for animals to be held in place while being x-rayed.
We always give animals a safe general anaesthetic (propofol and isoflurane) whilst hip scoring them, which is easier to control and monitor than a domitor sedation. I have always found with my own dogs and other setters they react very strongly to the acp used in the sedative prior to the anaesthetic so would only use a half dose. I would also make sure your vet uses a permanent catheter in the vein during anaesthesia incase of emergencies. I hope this helps!

[Sheree Parrish]

Thank you all so much for your replies, I haven't heard back from the homeopathic vets yet but have had a couple of pm's that I will be following up. 

It's a shame that it's illegal to hold an animal for x-rays as I feel, at the moment, that is the only option open to me, and obviously I don't think any vet is going to trust me enough not to tell anyone we did it without meds, as much as I can tell them I won't spill the beans, if it's their livelihood at stake then I can understand where they would be coming from. 

Henry is back at our own vets on Thursday, they don't know any of this at the moment so I will take my print-out and see what they have to say.  To be honest, how I feel at the moment I won't have him scored if it means he has to have meds, I would rather just not do it, but they may say that they used the Propofol when he was attacked, and he sailed through that op, I will then have to sit down and think long and hard about it.

The vet I took him to did explain what had happened to him, but I was so scared and upset that a lot of it went over my head, which is why they gave me the print-out. 

If nothing else, at least this thread will perhaps give others an insight and they can double check what meds are being used on their dogs.  I would imagine though, that Hen's reaction was a rare one, otherwise they wouldn't use it.

Thanks again, I really appreciate all the comments and the messages.  :-)

[Sheree Parrish]

Thanks Tracy :-)

I suppose it's like most things in life, one person or animal can be treated with a medicine and be fine, another has a reaction to it..and he did react to the reversal immediately, which was good. I suppose I am just that bit more worried as it happened to me previously, although a totally different vets in a totally different county, and 14 years apart, I had thought the first time was a fluke, and sadly we lost my baby boy..thankfully these vets brought Henry back to me.

[eva ciechonska]

Interesting point about the ACP Jo because I had a dog years ago who went into convulsions after sedation with this drug and I now have NO ACP on all my dogs veterinary records.  Louis was x-rayed under sedation and it was agreed prior to the procedure that the vet would use an alternative sedative. 

Sheree, another drug might work for Henry.  Can I just say that the majority of breeders hip score their dogs because they are going to breed from them.  If Henry is never going to be used at stud, perhaps, for his own health, it might just be better not to put him through this.

[Sheree Parrish]

You're right Eva, although I usually hip score mine regardless of whether they are being bred from, really to help with the statistics and also to have a bit of upfront knowledge with regards to adding supplements if there is a risk of arthritis.  He didn't have any effects when he had the GA last September, but I don't know if he was sedated first, I will find out as much as possible when we go back on Thursday, but he will definately have a note put on his records about the drugs they used...thankfully he responded immediately to the reversal drug so I at least know if he were given it again accidently, there is a strong possibility he would recover again.