Sire and Dam details in Litter Advertisements

[Rhonda Fisher]

A interesting new trend in advertisements on Dogs on line pure breed website. Litters of Irish being advertised with no mention of the Dam or Sire. Ads talk of proven show lines, bloodlines that have proven to be successful around the globe, features some of Australiasias top bloodlines, all Uk and european lines etc.

No names of the Dam and Sire.

Contact with the breeders has to be made before you can find out.

I find this strange as I would want to know more about the health and background of the pups up front. What do you think

[Sue Paterson]

Sorry it is off-track, and I had no intention of annoying anyone...just intrigued to know what was behind your question 'Is there anything to stop a rcd-4 affected dog or untested dog from being shown' in one of your earlier replies.....never mind, its not a problem.

[Rhonda Fisher]

Sorry I was annoyed Sue P. I would not make comment that a person should not show their dog. I know you would want to enjoy your boy as much as you can. My concern is that with information available about a dogs health results online that it would be important to have the name of the sire and dam up front so you could check. It is not only health checks either, looking at litters you tend to want to look up at what the parents are like as well. A litter- who are they out of, to me is hand in hand information. 

[eva ciechonska]

I agree Rhonda but in order to properly understand about health conditions, temperament etc for each respective breed there is nothing better than open and honest discussion.  Of course do your research but be aware that online information can be misleading and frightening.....like online self diagnosis. 

   

[Rhonda Fisher]

I don't really see that placing of the names of just the sire and the dam into an advert as providing a pedigree. Sue this comment was not questioning you. It was discussing the the post in respect to putting the name of the sire and dam on the advert. The advert you are explaining sounds very good as are some on the dogsonline site.

Including the name of the sire and dam would certainly not replace all the contact that is needed and to be enjoyed in meeting the dam, breeder and pups. This has never been suggested by me as it would be silly. We took the effort to see our boys sire in a champ show while he was in Melbourne and talk to the owner/breeder. This was before we met the pups as the timing just happened that way. I still have photos of him.

It certainly is not a case of one or the other and I find it stange that in some adverts that is what the situation is.Others with the names and images of mum and pups, full details of health results you start off with a really good feeling about the breeder and their willingness to share important information.  

[Rhonda Fisher]

The kennel club website is very well constructed. Good explainations and easy to use. Mate Select health results seems to be  straight forward. Dogs Vic site also is very user friendly but does not pick up on health as much.There seems to be a real effort in making the information straight forward and aimed not only at owners, breeders etc but the general public as well. The ANKC site does not have as much information regarding results of current health checks. Being the national body this is a shame.  Likewise with our state club website.

I personally think you have a great asset in your Kennel Club website and would encourage its use. I wish we had the same at a national level.

[Rhonda Fisher]

Sue the following is a copy from the previous reply."I don't really see that placing of the names of just the sire and the dam into an advert as providing a pedigree. Sue this comment was not questioning you. It was discussing the the post in respect to putting the name of the sire and dam on the advert. The advert you are explaining sounds very good as are some on the dogsonline site".

I have not commented twice, I have copied the first statement in to make what we were discussing clearer. I have gone on to explain this was not in relation to you or more clearly your ad. I have said the ad sounds very good. It was discussing the post. In the post I was discussing the addition of just the sire and dam names not a whole pedigree.

I really don't understand why you are suggesting that I have said something I have not twice.  

Why would I not like an advert that has a pedigree on it when I am of the opinion that as a minimum adverts should have the sire and dam name.

I am talking about more basic inclusions than a 3 generation pedigree.

 

[Rhonda Fisher]

Sue H I agree you are lost. I did answer you twice and the last reply really outlined what I thought about your advert and the inclusion of the pedigree. I will try once more.

Placing just the name of the sire and dam on the advert eg dogsonline is basic information that I think is appropriate as a minimum. It is a lot less information than a pedigree and therefore takes up a lot less room. The health checks for the pup needs only the parents correct name. For this a pedigree is not required.

I am refering to the original post . 

The comment is not about your ad which had the pedigree. This has more than just the name of the sire and dam obviously.

The comment was not about you :-).

[Rhonda Fisher]

Your dogs are lucky to have you Michelle and you them. It would be hard to imagine a Setter putting up with anything less than a fully devoted owner. Sports are something they do on the weekends which leaves 5 days of family pampering. That is if they show every weekend. I do think you need to add groomer wizz as well.

[Cheryl Gorey]

I agree as I am proud to be a "pet owner" of my special Irish Setters.  Or should I say, they own me!  They live with us as part of our family, first and foremost they are my pets/companions, etc (in similiar arrangements to Michelle's).  In addition to that, I do some showing, obedience, tracking and endurance.

The question about having information about the sire and dam on the adverts is an interesting one, but I guess it is a personal choice as to what people want to advertise. Some people like to hold their plans close to their chest and others like to advertise the details.  Would more details on the advert increase interest in their litter over another one which doesn't have the details? 

For me, I would find it interesting to know who is breeding in Australia and who the sires and dams are and what the health status of those lines are, but I would be interested from the perspective of what is happening in the breed, as I am not in the market for a new puppy.  Whilst I would like to know, as I am not a genuine enquiry, then I would not get that information unless I contacted the breeder for more information. 

For people genuinely interested in making an enquiry with that breeder, then I agree with the comments made by Eva and Sue that all that information should be readily available to them once contact is made with the breeder and then the necessary research would begin.

For me, I wouldn't be using dogzonline to find a litter for a puppy as I would have already done a huge amount of research and probably had an order in with the breeder of my choice for over 1 year before any announcement of upcoming litter of pups for sale went onto the site.  So I presume that the adverts are probably more directed to people who are looking for a puppy of a particular breed and haven't got to the stage of researching the lines, etc and/or the breeder doesn't have a full waiting list for the upcoming litter and wants to advertise to increase their list of potential buyers.

As far as the comment about advertising that a sire or dam is of a particular rcd4 status ie: carrier or affected, then I see no slight on the breeder for using their stock and it is important that we remember that we need to include carriers and affected stock in breeding programs and as long as one of the parents is clear, then this is a responsible breeding program and I applaud the breeder having their dogs DNA tested and advertising their status.

[Cheryl Gorey]

I agree Sue, when I reflect on all the Irish I have owned, I haven't purchased any of them through litter adverts.  Not that I think there is anything wrong with it, but I made direct contact with the breeder that I wanted to get the pup from so haven't needed to go down that path.

Temperament has always been a top priority for me too! and researching for type and also to suit my interests has been an important part of my decisions too.

[Chantal McIlveen-Wright]

Rhonda I think you have a very strong point here. When choosing a puppy my first concern will be the health of the parents and lines. On ES we had many examples of people living a life of misery because their puppies had epilepsy, or being devastated by losing a young dog after a bloat, and many other terrible diseases found in Irish Setters, some of them being hereditary or highly suspected to be.

Many breeders are working very hard at eliminating those problems from their lines, and I really thank them from the bottom of my heart for their hard work and commitment to the breed. All my boys were and are very healthy, I am a lucky one, but many of us have been deeply affected to read or witness the torment of some unlucky owners with affected pets. Hence, I strongly believe that for the breed and for us, health should come first and foremost in our priorities when choosing a puppy and should be part of the ad. Now, why a breeder doing her/his best for the breed should not play the transparency card and wait for a phone call from the potential buyer to answer these questions? 

My guess would be that the old way of selling puppies is still very strong in some countries or rather with some people. Nothing wrong with that as fortunately there are still many very honest breeders, but we are at an international era now, European dogs are going to Australia, America, etc. and vice versa. It is so simple and even free on many websites to advertise a litter with all the health information, pedigrees lines, pictures, etc. It is free on ES  :-)

[Rhonda Fisher]

Thank You Chantal and Cheryl There are many ways to buy a setter. We were lucky enough to have an enormous amount of help by a breeder we met at the Royal. Drawn to her by her beautiful boy Josh who reminded us so much of Phil's last setter Rufus. His breeder was no longer breeding. She was the breeder of our boys dam but was not the owner at the time of the litter. The following of her pups and their litters even outside Australia is one of my favorite pastimes. Like you Cheryl it is the love of Irish that makes us so interested in what dam and sires are being mated and all the health aspects of our Irish. Transparency is a great word Chantal. Not every one new to the breed  in what ever capacity as a potential owner, has the network to start with. With all the new dogs and AI  the parents names are a very basic need. Not replacing anything at all. just complementing the new information that is available so freely.

On a completely different note. Well done Black Caviar. Luke you gave us a heart attack but she responded beautifully when you asked her. What a team.