A few thoughts on moderation

[Gene]

Seems like there has been a lot of discussion - to me directly and on the site - on the recent removal of a certain member.  Wanted to provide some context:

 - This member was warned multiple times and had multiple complaints from multiple members over several weeks.  They will not be invited back.  There are no plans to invite any previously removed members back, either.

- I really don't care how knowledgeable someone is (there are tons of knowledgeable members still here).  If they are a rude to other members, they are gone, like a cancer that needs removal.  Not sure this is a lot different than any other Internet site.  I frequent several discussion forums and when people post things that are inappropriate or rude or vulgar, the content and/or member are removed.  Seems pretty simple to me.

- Moderation is tough, especially on a site I no longer use because people were rude to me when it started. If we don't moderate, trolls run off members.  If we 'over moderate', then people leave because they can't have passionate discussion.  People are going to leave either way.  It's like death and taxes.

 - With a site of this size, there is no earthly way you can please everyone.  I remember being in a leadership position in college and noticed with a group of just 30 people, every single decision I made disappointed or upset someone...without fail.  This site has almost 2,200 members.  Whenever a choice is made to leave or remove someone, people will be upset.

 - People who 'threaten' to leave like the site like they are some critical contributor whose departure will crater the site...please let me know if you have any problems doing so and I would be more than happy to help you!  :-)

David McIlveen Wright had a great suggestion a while back that I think we need to consider - a Code of Conduct.  Here's the example David provided.  This is NOT an official Ning or Exclusively Setters Code of Conduct, but it has a lot of positives:

----

By using this Forum you agree to the following terms:

• No hostility. All discussions must be friendly and civil.

• No posts or pm's attacking other members. Teasing or jesting between forum friends is fine, but it must be in an obviously friendly manner with a smiley to make it clear you are joking. If it is clearly hostile or between people who clearly dislike each other then it will be considered an attack. If someone complains about being teased then both sides must stop immediately.

• No sectarianism. This means not posting anything that praises or criticises any prominent group (or person) on either side of the sectarian divide.

• No threats of physical violence.

• No inflammatory posts. No controversial, offensive or otherwise disruptive posts which are likely to provoke others into a hostile argument.

• No racism.

• No lying.

• No posts of an 'adult' nature.

• No swearing. Don't 'hide' swearing by replacing certain letters with others or inserting spaces.

• No spamming. Do not post or send unsolicited pm's advertising something or promoting another website without the permission of the administrator.

• No defamatory posts.

• No copyrighted material. Do not post or upload any material protected by copyright without the permission of the owner of the copyright. You shall be solely liable for any damage resulting from any such infringement of copyright.

• No more than one membership per person. Do not register or use more than one username per user. People from the same household sharing the same internet connection will need to disclose their relationship to the forum.

• No mod-bashing. Do not question, mock, criticise or complain about moderators or their decisions on the boards. The moderators will happily discuss individual decisions at length by PM only and if there has been misunderstanding then posts can be undeleted and restored to the forum.

• Do not publish any personal information about another member (eg real name, address, email address) unless they have stated they are happy for it to be posted. Please respect the privacy of other members. Do not publish an email or pm that someone has sent you privately.

 

Posts that break the above rules will be deleted. For blatant or persistent offences a number of warnings will be given before issuing a ban. The number of warnings issued will depend on the seriousness of the incident(s) as deemed by the moderators. In some cases no warnings may be issued at all before banning.

The moderators reserve the right to delete any content they regard as inappropriate. When posts are deleted an explanation may or may not be given depending on how obvious the problem is. If you notice one of your posts has been deleted and do not know why, please pm the moderators for an explanation.

The staff or the owners of this forum do not continually monitor the posted messages, and as such, are not responsible for the content contained within. We do not warrant the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information presented. The posted messages express the views of the author, and not necessarily the views of this forum, its staff, its subsidiaries, or this forum's owner. Anyone who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to notify the administrators of this forum immediately. The staff and the owner of this forum reserve the right to remove objectionable content, within a reasonable time frame, if they determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, please realise that they may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately. This policy applies to member profile information as well.

You remain solely responsible for the content of your posted messages. In no event will the staff or owners of this site or any person or entity involved in distributing the site, be liable for any damages including, without limitation, indirect or consequential damages, or any damages arising out of or in connection with the use of this site. Furthermore, you agree to indemnify and hold harmless the owners of this forum, any related websites to this forum, its staff, and its subsidiaries.

This site contains hyperlinks to Web sites operated by parties other than this site. Such hyperlinks are provided for reference and convenience only. This site does not control such Web sites, and is not responsible for their content. This site does not necessarily endorse any of the material on such Web sites, or has any association with their operators.

You own the copyright to your messages. By posting or submitting material on this site, you grant the site owner a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right (including any moral rights) and license to publish, edit, modify, adapt, distribute, reproduce, communicate to the public, perform and display the submitted content (in whole or in part) on the worldwide web for the full term of any rights that may exist in the content.

The owners of this forum reserve the right to reveal your identity (or any other related information collected on this service) in the event of a formal complaint or legal action arising from any situation caused by your use of this forum.

This software places a cookie, a text file containing bits of information (such as your username and password), in your browser's cache. This is ONLY used to keep you logged in/out. The software does not collect or send any other form of information to your computer.

The rules are subject to change at any time, although an announcement regarding any changes will usually be made.

-------

To me, a lot of the above is common sense, but you know the old adage about common sense.  Open to suggestions on improving the moderation process so it optimizes the communities enjoyment of this site.

Gene

[Lois McCullough]

Sad to say but I really believe this is a sign of the times in which we live in even in this small Kent village we have noticed during the past 9 years a total change in animosity towards one's neighbours. If only we lived in an ideal world 'when it was live and let live' but no we have animosity even when it comes to our beautifulSetters who fortunately have very little knowledge of our changing world. Thank you Gene may the site one day return to all it was built for Lois xx

[Lois McCullough]

Mel as before I believe it is essential to have the input of Breeders I have spent many happy hours socially with some of them. I don't show/breed and very recently had a Sunday lunch laughing and sharing with 3 of the well known faces.Lunch took forever because the knowledge that came from this get together was second to none and also the honesty so rare in this day and age. We're looking forward to our next get together later in the month even if one of my 'boys' hasn't quite got the right shaped head!!

[Jane Mugford]

I find this site addictive & keep checking up on it but I am afraid I think it is becoming more applicable to the pet owners & no longer offers much for the breeders. I think the recent advert for cross bred puppies illustrates this clearly. Don't get me wrong, I was brought up with a Jack russell X & he was adorable but I wonder what was wrong with this breeders Irish Setter or Collie that they weren't content with either. Surely they could of mated either to one of it's own breed . Maybe I am wrong & it was an accident & if so i apologise but doesn't sound like it.

I also enjoy the photos but do wonder why some people seem to upload every single image, why not just show us the best, funniest, cutest etc.

As an Irish Setter breeder/owner for nearly 40 years I would like to share some of my experience but regretfully I think the majority on this site think they know it all already.

Like several other UK breeders I will now just look at the site occasionally but rarely make a comment 

[Dawn Riddell]

I wonder whether one of the Breed Clubs or maybe the Bardonhill.com or Colin Waddell's site could tempted to add a forum to their very successful breed specific sites. I strongly believe that there is a need for public discussion between experienced breeders and enthusiasts, with a view to educating us all. I always thought so, even before I found ES.

Although I'm not terribly successful in the show ring, I've been around for nearly 40 years too. I've never bred, but I'm interested in hearing experiences from the ''big breeders'' because I'm interested in the breed. There's such alot to learn and I for one need a forum like this to hear the sort of information I'm interested in.

 

Dawn R.

[Angela Clarke]

I have never breed dogs, I have only had two setters and I spend lots of time on this site. I thank everyone for replys to my questions, the first day I went on this site I started learning so much, for this I thank you all.The knowledge of the breeders is wonderful, but it is also good to read how owners have dealt with problems. I am not after free information, I have a very good vet,The knowledge from owners and breeders alike is priceless "HOME FOR IRISH SETTER LOVERS AROUND THE WORLD"  Is this not us all ?

[Andy Benstead]

Hi Camilla. Very well said. I agree with you 100%. Kindest regards. Andy

[Andy Benstead]

Hi Jane. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought the site was for anyone with an interest in Setters. It is called Exclusively Setters and not Exclusively Setter Breeders. I am just a pet owner and have owned Irish for well over 30 years. Without the pet owners we would need very few breeders. In my opinion a pet owner is every bit as important as a breeder, in fact more important. Would you like to see Setter owners banned from this site? Would that be the best moderation?

    You also say "why not just show us the best, funniest, cutest etc". If a person uploads an image, they think it is a cute, funny or in some other way a good image. We all have different opinions about the images posted here. Have a look at the pictures I have posted as I must be guilty of posting images that are not cute, funny or the best, but I am proud of them all.

   I did not see the advert for cross bred puppies, but that should never have been allowed on here. Moderation should have blocked it.

The breeders have a wealth of knowledge between them and it is a shame if you and others no longer wish to comment or are no longer part of this group. Although I am just an owner, I do have some knowledge of the breed, but would like to learn more from the experienced breeders.

Kind regards

Andy

[Lois McCullough]

Perhaps it's time to lighten the discussion a little so with tongue in cheek do we really own our Setters? I definitely don't they own me
1 they decide when it's'time for breakfast lunch or dinner
2 they decide whether they're going to eat it or not
3 they decide.where they're going to sleep by opening the door to the snug and finding a nice comfy armchair
4 they decide to nick whatever is reachable on the kitchen worktop
5 they decide it's' walkies time
6 they decide training classes are a bore and run off to play with their chums
7 they decide to grumble when it's grooming time
8 they decide to chase the 20 odd ducks off the garden
9 dig up beans, nick the compost shovel and so on and so on

Thank goodness for our sensible breeders who put a degree of decorum in my otherwise chaotic life after all you did breed some beautiful pups

[Andy Benstead]

Hi Sue. I have respect for many of the breeders and I have always said that. Most are helping to improve the breed. I also say breeders need pet owners as much (if not more) as pet owners need breeders. Setters need both owners and breeders to continue. Supply and demand. If for any reason setter owners changed to a different breed, setter breeders could not continue breeding them. Obviously that will never happen as setters are the best breed of dog.

Cross bred puppies should never be advertised on here.

You say,"This site is fast becoming a no go area for breeders and we are losing all that wisdom and experience". I do agree with that.

Kindest regards. Andy

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Camilla, I will very saddened if this group ceases to be a place where experienced breeders have have good discussions. I've been on internet groups since the 1990s when the first setter groups started , and have to say that for the level of intelligent well informed discussion about setters  this has until now been the very best group of all. It has also helped that this list is able to separate topics, and leave personal items of news  to go on members personal pages. So the discussions dont get swamped by trivia. I really like it that way, when I come on to this group , I tend to look just for the topics that look like they will produce good discussion or good information, and leave the rest, just dont have time to read it all. And its these topics where the experienced breeders are mostly to be found. Its fine that we dont all agree all of the time, but until recently its been civilised and tolerant
Personally I am really grieving that Eva has left, she became somebody I came to know through Exclusively Setters and now regard as a friend and source of good advice when I need it. It doesnt matter that sometimes we see things differently, I can still appreciate, respect  and value her decades of experience and knowledge. At least we can still talk on the phone

I remember around ten years ago something similar happened on the American working gundogs list, at that time  the best working gundog discussion group in the world,  there were arguments between experienced trainers/breeders and relative newcomers to the field of working dogs, eventually the more experienced trainers and breeders simply removed themselves to another closed group, from which novice owners/trainers were excluded. And how much duller the original group became without them. The excellent Canine Genetics list  founded by John Armstrong went the other way, only a minority of more distinguished  members are now allowed to post freely, the rest are moderated, which has stifled debate, and many have gone to another group.

It really is worthwhile to keep the experienced breeders, the not so experienced and the pet owners together , the old and the young, the working people and the show people. We all lose when some leave or are silenced  or excluded. Those who feel they have "won" when somebody leaves or is excluded - you havent, you have lost something. A discussion isnt a fight where one person wins, and another loses, its about being able to put your point of view, and be listened to, and then let somebody else do the same. Some people will learn and change, others wont, it doesnt matter, thats just how people are.

[Andy Benstead]

Hi Camilla. Again I agree 100% with what you have said. I believe that Setters are a 50/50 partnership between breeders and pet owners. Not sure if I was right or wrong, but the way I read that post made me feel inferior because I am a pet owner and not a breeder.

I have the upmost respect for you as a breeder and owner and I also respect many other breeders. I will miss the input by you and other knowledgeable breeders.

I understand the reasons you and others have taken a step back. I have seen the gang warfare on here and I hated it and hate the results of it too.

Kindest regards. Andy

[Jane Mugford]

Hi Andy

No of course i don't want setter owners banned, in fact as a breeder i am much happier to sell to a pet owner as to a show owner as I would hate an exhibitor to be disappointed in their choice.  Likewise where would the pet owners go for a quality puppy without the breeders with the breed at their heart

In regard to the photos, it is just my preference that i don't see( & here I generalise) mitzi about to have a drink, now having a drink, now licking her lips after having a drink.

As regards to the cross bred litter it surprised me there was not reaction