Conflict over COI

[Henk ten Klooster]

“A first step forward for future” is how the committee of the Dutch Irish setter club describes a proposal to forbid combinations for breeding with a higher coefficient of inbreeding (coi) than five. Reason is “a rise of inheritable defects” like epilepsy, showing a clear connection with COI above five. A group of mostly show breeders tries to prevent this new rule being accepted on the annual general meeting. They launch another proposal, maintaining freedom of breeders to breed above that maximum.
What is your opinion?

[ursula wilby]

I agree 100% with Leen, one of my puppybuyers had an ES dog (tri-colour) and an IRS bitch.

Children opened the door at the wrong time...

14 puppies, I seem to remember. This is way back, but they were about 50% black, the other 50% red with a bit more white than normal.
But nothing more than for instance some of Henks IRS.

The red was less deep in colour compared to a "normal" setter from me, but nothing alarming and nothing you would not have been able to get "away" with. Lots of hunting Irish red setters in Scandinavia are slightly lighter anyhow.

[Gennadi]

1 solid red and one perfect BLACK

That's what I told about, I didn't say all pupps will be Black. And thank to Lena, she has corrected me this particular dog on pic was from Gordon x IRS

[Susan Stone]

Gennadi, when you say ES and GS produces completely black dogs when mated to IRS it sounds like you are stating a fact, but I presume this is due to writing in a foreign languag (and don't ask me to write in russian, please...)

'can produce black' would be clearer and I could agree with that statement

[Henk ten Klooster]

Some show bred dogs have head that looks like bloodhound head, that's true. writes Gennadi.

Back in the old days breeders simply said it. And named bloodhound as source. Characteristics were not only in conformation (head, ears etc.), behaviour as well. Quite often their pups had heads considered to be very refined:-))

[Margaret Sierakowski Dalriach IRWS]

Maybe time to start a new topic, this has nothing to do with lowering COIs in modern setters :))

[terry o leary]

Hello Henk I had a look at page 49 in Rays Book,Marr says"I could not help feeling that there was something else in this strain" I asked for facts not feeling not suspicions but facts.I am still waiting for facts confirming what you have stated.As for asking Laura Dunne I would not have had to ask her,if there was any truth in the rumours she would have told me.I just wonder did Marr ask the Carbey's when they were alive or did he wait until they were dead to speculate on these matters.As for trying to beat you,I am not that petty.If you have any real facts not feeling or suspicions I would like to hear them.Maybe we will meet some time in the future and enjoy a glass or two of good Irish whiskey.Till then I wish you all the best in your quest for the real facts and not just rumours.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Some whiskey some day ok. Hopefully you have meanwhile brought the average coi 7-30 in IRWS down. Otherwise they can not be bred anymore in my country (maximum 5 for IRWS temporarily more). And no - I will not advise to use a bloodhound to get it done rapidly:-))))

As for asking Laura Dunne I would not have had to ask her,if there was any truth in the rumours she would have told me.

If so than it is a pity that she did not write her version of what happened or not. All publications were during her lifetime. So there were chances to react. For her or anyone else who had another opinion.

Maybe she did not know about the book etc.? Seems not likely. Marr was very enthusiastic in his book about Peter Dunne and Mullencluains. See the German version "Pointer und Setter", published 1964 in Oppenheim am Rhein. pp 157.

I asked for facts not feeling not suspicions but facts.

It is history, because relevant printed sources are available for people researching breeds history.

I just wonder did Marr ask the Carbery's when they were alive or did he wait until they were dead to speculate on these matters.,

According to Rays book Marr "knew Carbery's dogs well". So he could have asked him. As far as known he did not report answer(s).

Most burning question is of course why all relevant writers waited so long for publication. Answers would be intresting to know. Even now, as relevant dogs dive up not just a few times in extended pedigrees but a with a lot of zeroes behind.

A request here: can we go back to the topic and forget about the bloodhound for a while. Lets say forty years?:-)

[Gennadi]

Let's back to the topic.
I'd lake to ask Cristiane Lohmann, why she wanted to make exchange her puppy to Russian puppy from Misha Eidmond.
Decreasing COI?
BTW my FTCh Ikar was gr-gr-grandsire to this pupps.

[Christiane Lohmann]

Yep. (Although we have Ch. Mischka 1126 and Ch. Umka 1310 already behind our G-litter.) And some other reasons apart from COI.

[Gennadi]

And some other reasons apart from COI.

If it's not a secret what are these reasons? ;)
There were more interesting litters this year, for instance from FTCh Duna owner V.Lemenchuk. Very stylish bitch with very high head on gallop, good speed, great nose. Unfortunatly very narrow casts, as we call it 'dog polishes your boots' and when we trained together with Duna's owner Slava before took part in champ, my dog did one find, when Duna didn't, just because of very narrow casts. Though narrow casts could be result of trainings. Anyway very good bitch, take a look photo.
http://www.red-setter.ru/images/07/DUNA.jpg

[Gennadi]

I took a look at Mischka and Umka pedeegres, both had a bit of German bloods. Now I know what you meant.
I'd suggest you do not use prefix Ch. before these dogs name, nother Moschka, no Umka were not FTCh, though Umka got 1-st degree diploma at the time, but it was hunting test, not championship.
Ch. means champion of the breed according to old Russian rules and got nothing in common with dogs which were the first in field and in ring. This Ch. was big Russian mistake.

[Christiane Lohmann]

It is late, I am tired and I was ready to give you the other reasons aside COI. But as you found already an explanation for yourself, I believe you are satisfied and not interested in my answer. Sure I am looking for russian dogs, who have a german ancestor 10-12 generations back....hohoho.
Thanks for recommending Duna ! I will have a look at the mentioned page tomorrow.
Interesting to hear about the old Ch. title. I was wondering about the regulations for all those champions as Karolina, Sultan, Laima, Ars-Bis, Lada etc.