Conflict over COI

[Henk ten Klooster]

“A first step forward for future” is how the committee of the Dutch Irish setter club describes a proposal to forbid combinations for breeding with a higher coefficient of inbreeding (coi) than five. Reason is “a rise of inheritable defects” like epilepsy, showing a clear connection with COI above five. A group of mostly show breeders tries to prevent this new rule being accepted on the annual general meeting. They launch another proposal, maintaining freedom of breeders to breed above that maximum.
What is your opinion?

[Henk ten Klooster]

At last someone suggesting it is NOT true, Terry O'Leary. Elsewhere some sources are provided about doubts on Carbery's lines. So at last we have a possibility to chose who to believe....

You say your source never told you. Why didn't you ask her. Does it mean in your eyes that not telling means it never happened? Do you have any explanation why apparently your friend never reacted on all accusations in print? For sure she had all right to speak up here!

Do you know why what you call "slander" is quoted fully in Raymond O'Dwyers book? (p 49)

As for the dogs you mention. It was within my point about so called "Native Setters" disappearing from our common memory. This is the purity-process. Although everyone able to analyse sources knows they are present, they say or do not know they are there because they like or want to think their breed is pure. Nonsense!

You can't find them in the IRWS pedigree base. Well I can. Your info on both dogs is wrong, Dee Rance has corrected it meanwhile. As for what Christaine wrote: In the UK most live on via PRA tested clear dogs, so don't worry. But not tested via quite a few continental European lines!!!

Your question "about my import with Dutch lines". Reread mine, it was a question on the basis of a post of Margaret saying you had imported an IRWS with "some unusual breeding" behind. Ah well maybe Margaret knows or can say what she think she knows.

As for your bottle of whiskey. I simply tried to explain that the idea of "purity" is probably deadwrong. Try to prove the IRWS is pure over 20 generations. It would take 4.186.116 ancestors. To say the names of these dogs two seconds for each would take over long working days three months. So you would have to work long to beat me....

[Margaret Sierakowski]

"our question "about my import with Dutch lines". Reread mine, it was a question on the basis of a post of Margaret saying you had imported an IRWS with "some unusual breeding" behind. Ah well maybe Margaret knows or can say what she think she knows."

Well, this is another fine example of Henk completely misinterpreting something he has read, and coming up with the wrong explanation.
The IRWS with some unusual breeding is from Sweden, on the sire's side a grandson of my Pepperstown Polly and Dalriach Auchindoun, and on the dams side going back to some old IRWS lines from Ireland, via dogs like Ben of Sugarloaf, Glenkeen Seeker and Bawnrhu Patsy, who appear less often in the modern IRWS pedigrees. This line in Sweden had been almost lost, but has survived in Gun Wikstrom's Drakstjarns dogs. It is good that one will be coming back to Ireland. Genuine IRWS, and definitely not from Holland :))

[Henk ten Klooster]

Question was "Any Dutch lines in?" No answer. Now you come up with the answer. Thats all. Got nothing to do with misinterpretation. Well will this bring your coi down?

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Ray O'Dwyer simply quotes verbatim what Waldemar Marr wrote, comments that due to the size of the Boyne dogs they did not have as much influence in Ireland as they did elsewhere, and finally says "There was no proof that he had outcrossed but suspicions aroused at that time have never been dispelled"
Not a mention of bloodhounds

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Flatcoats mated to Irish Setters should produce all black puppies. It would be difficult to register a litter of all black puppies as Irish Setters with the UK Kennel Club, where the colour of the puppies has to be entered on the registration application . But one might get away with registering them as Flatcoats :))

[Susan Stone]

Gennadi, I suggest you look at Katariina's Woito...

[ursula wilby]

I agree 100% with Leen, one of my puppybuyers had an ES dog (tri-colour) and an IRS bitch.

Children opened the door at the wrong time...

14 puppies, I seem to remember. This is way back, but they were about 50% black, the other 50% red with a bit more white than normal.
But nothing more than for instance some of Henks IRS.

The red was less deep in colour compared to a "normal" setter from me, but nothing alarming and nothing you would not have been able to get "away" with. Lots of hunting Irish red setters in Scandinavia are slightly lighter anyhow.

[Susan Stone]

Gennadi, when you say ES and GS produces completely black dogs when mated to IRS it sounds like you are stating a fact, but I presume this is due to writing in a foreign languag (and don't ask me to write in russian, please...)

'can produce black' would be clearer and I could agree with that statement

[Henk ten Klooster]

Some show bred dogs have head that looks like bloodhound head, that's true. writes Gennadi.

Back in the old days breeders simply said it. And named bloodhound as source. Characteristics were not only in conformation (head, ears etc.), behaviour as well. Quite often their pups had heads considered to be very refined:-))

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Maybe time to start a new topic, this has nothing to do with lowering COIs in modern setters :))

[terry o leary]

Hello Henk I had a look at page 49 in Rays Book,Marr says"I could not help feeling that there was something else in this strain" I asked for facts not feeling not suspicions but facts.I am still waiting for facts confirming what you have stated.As for asking Laura Dunne I would not have had to ask her,if there was any truth in the rumours she would have told me.I just wonder did Marr ask the Carbey's when they were alive or did he wait until they were dead to speculate on these matters.As for trying to beat you,I am not that petty.If you have any real facts not feeling or suspicions I would like to hear them.Maybe we will meet some time in the future and enjoy a glass or two of good Irish whiskey.Till then I wish you all the best in your quest for the real facts and not just rumours.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Some whiskey some day ok. Hopefully you have meanwhile brought the average coi 7-30 in IRWS down. Otherwise they can not be bred anymore in my country (maximum 5 for IRWS temporarily more). And no - I will not advise to use a bloodhound to get it done rapidly:-))))

As for asking Laura Dunne I would not have had to ask her,if there was any truth in the rumours she would have told me.

If so than it is a pity that she did not write her version of what happened or not. All publications were during her lifetime. So there were chances to react. For her or anyone else who had another opinion.

Maybe she did not know about the book etc.? Seems not likely. Marr was very enthusiastic in his book about Peter Dunne and Mullencluains. See the German version "Pointer und Setter", published 1964 in Oppenheim am Rhein. pp 157.

I asked for facts not feeling not suspicions but facts.

It is history, because relevant printed sources are available for people researching breeds history.

I just wonder did Marr ask the Carbery's when they were alive or did he wait until they were dead to speculate on these matters.,

According to Rays book Marr "knew Carbery's dogs well". So he could have asked him. As far as known he did not report answer(s).

Most burning question is of course why all relevant writers waited so long for publication. Answers would be intresting to know. Even now, as relevant dogs dive up not just a few times in extended pedigrees but a with a lot of zeroes behind.

A request here: can we go back to the topic and forget about the bloodhound for a while. Lets say forty years?:-)