Conflict over COI

[Henk ten Klooster]

“A first step forward for future” is how the committee of the Dutch Irish setter club describes a proposal to forbid combinations for breeding with a higher coefficient of inbreeding (coi) than five. Reason is “a rise of inheritable defects” like epilepsy, showing a clear connection with COI above five. A group of mostly show breeders tries to prevent this new rule being accepted on the annual general meeting. They launch another proposal, maintaining freedom of breeders to breed above that maximum.
What is your opinion?

[Christiane Lohmann]

Yep. (Although we have Ch. Mischka 1126 and Ch. Umka 1310 already behind our G-litter.) And some other reasons apart from COI.

[Christiane Lohmann]

It is late, I am tired and I was ready to give you the other reasons aside COI. But as you found already an explanation for yourself, I believe you are satisfied and not interested in my answer. Sure I am looking for russian dogs, who have a german ancestor 10-12 generations back....hohoho.
Thanks for recommending Duna ! I will have a look at the mentioned page tomorrow.
Interesting to hear about the old Ch. title. I was wondering about the regulations for all those champions as Karolina, Sultan, Laima, Ars-Bis, Lada etc.

[Christiane Lohmann]

You have made my day;-))))
THANKS !

Didn't Djuna have puppies ?
And...I finally found missing ancestors in the sire's pedigree of our A-litter, tracing back to Joy 1033, Ruslan 1039 several times. Also the umpteenth generation back, but still I am interested to find different development of european IS bloodlines.

What I am still wondering, why was an import about 15 years ago advertised as being a descendent of the famous Romanov-strain from the Tsar's kennel ? Only good marketing strategy ? Or what was behind it...Sorry, absolutely Off Topic here.

[Christiane Lohmann]

neither show nor trial on the germans side;-(((
Kennel "Brumley's" is living 'next door' to kennel "von Royal", so he used many times the available studdogs from Royal.
Be it from Moanruad blood or the imported british showdogs. Those two bloodlines were bred separately in Kennel Royal.

Nevertheless Amadeus looks very fine.Would you regard him as important carrier of lost german genes, his german blood is fifty years ago...? Half serious question.;-)

[Christiane Lohmann]

I was answering on this:
"Dam is from Germany Broomley's Kennel, bloods of Charly and Rocksy von Royal plus some German show or dual (no idea) German dogs."

Looks as if you do all your best to misunderstand me...

[Dee Rance]

But surly you all have been off the topic for the past two pages.....at least...

[Christiane Lohmann]

Would you like another threat to go into details about who breeds how and with what ?
1a) Kennel Royal has imported several dogs from Great Britain as Raycroft Teasel, Emmafield Trojan, Fearnley Firetreasure and bred with them for show purpose
1b) Kennel Royal has also imported several dogs from Ireland as Clontarf Nabrackmore. Moanruad Dahlia, Timothy, Garth, Buccanneer, Best Chance and Sheantullagh Venon and bred with them for pure working purpose.

About 70 litters so far.

2) Kennel Brumley's has started with an american bitch and mated her and her offsprings with males from Germany, Ireland, Netherlands, GB.

Do you understand it now ???;-)))

[Henk ten Klooster]

It is very relevant for the topic here to find non or not so much related families. Because that is the most direct way to lower the coefficient of inbreeding. So if we tell eachother about relevant lineage thats ok, the Russian genepool can be VERY MUCH ON TOPIC. So continue your exploration of Russian lines where relevant!!!

But plz come up with OPINIONS as well. Like there is no need for lowering the coi because.....Many here must think about it that way, because the average coi is near to everywhere in many circles far above 5 and even from the same narrow genepools. IF your opinion is we need to lower the coi, tell for the benefit of quality in discussions at least how to do it (so mention families non or not so much related you would chose or cancel and why).

So far we had a few very clear opinions on the Irish red and white setter: most debaters here say they do not want to use their family in other registry (IRWS in FDSB, UKC). Still they want to lower the coi because it is alarmingly high (7-30 was mentioned). Some would chose a new crossing with IRS to get it done but "only from genuine Irish lines". That means under more the French working genepool but that one is built on mostly same lineage (Moanruad). Most of the Scandinavian genepool is mixed with the ones they do not want (USA).

So the IRWS fraternity here did not yet come up with an answer for future.. In this category plz stop personal attacks, I will not react. Stay in topic, it must be intresting certainly for this "young old" breed because it deals with survival!!!

[Susan Stone]

I'm finding these discussions and especially the russian dogs very interesting. It shows there are various unrelated families still around.

Henk, I'd be happy if all COI quotes could be done with reference to the number of generations used in calculation. I think the dutch COI of 5 is over 5 generations but I am not sure.

At the moment the 'outcross' discussion seems to be mostly about crossing a IRS to widen the gene pool of the IRWS. How about the other way round? How would the breed benefit and would this be a recommendable step towards healthier Irish Red Setters?

[Henk ten Klooster]

At the moment the 'outcross' discussion seems to be mostly about crossing a IRS to widen the gene pool of the IRWS. How about the other way round? How would the breed benefit and would this be a recommendable step towards healthier Irish Red Setters? wrote Susan Stone.

A creative idea. I think its done already in Australia with red and whites from reds. Restoring the past: until a few decades ago it was still one breed.

Yes it could add in my view to the genepool of Irish red setters, because there are some strains in the red and white of nowadays not or not so much in the nowadays red setter. So it could broaden the genepool.

There would be more white in red setters of course, but it is relatively easy to decrease the amount of white by selection.

Your point is taken: plz all contributors here: when mentioning a coi, mention the number of generations used in calculation and try for at least ten!!!!!! So what are the cois of your Irish setters????

[Henk ten Klooster]

The "Ierse Setter Club" (Irish Setter Club of the Netherlands) so not the "Raad van beheer" (Dutch Kennel Club) takes TEN (10) generations for the coefficient of inbreeding (coi). Maximum is FIVE (5) above which breeding is forbidden. That is the percentage for a mating.

This percentage of 5 is for Irish red setters. For Irish red and white setters, temporarily a higher coi is accepted because of the current state of affairs there. But the committee stated breeders of IRWS should strive at reaching this percentage soon.

There was a huge oppostion from mainly showbreeders during the AGM of the ISCN and more left the meeting before it was closed. A small majority voted for the proposal of the committee. Quite a few of these opposing breeders are on this website. They agreed that it was "unwanted" to breed above such a maximum, but still wanted to keep the freedom to do so.

Other relevant information: the ISCN has as far as I know the eldest health registry of setterclubs in the world. It started in the seventies, at the time led by the vet Wim van Gemert. It interviews all owners of IS with pedigrees three times in a lifetime. It is one of the bigger breedclubs, counting around 800 members. Breeding is for 98% UK bloodlines.

Professor Mandigers advised on the coi-percentage.

Before, in the clubmonthly Ierse Setter Klanken (Irish Setter Sounds) it was explained why this measures were needed on the basis of scientifical reports, the health registry and signals like letters and telephonecalls from owners with dogs who had problems varying from epilepsy to heartproblems at relative young age.

There was a heartbreaking story of an owner of an epileptic dog who was attacked by the other setter during a fit. For epilepsy, the ISCN is cooperating with the Finnish club and the university of Helsinki to detect a genetic pattern. Samples are collected from eplileptic dogs and their non epileptic family.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Working Russian dogs, that's true, some of them got very low COI (Allmost zero 0 in 10 gen), but these are the dogs of different type and pretty big at the same time. wrote Gennadi.

What you know share it plz. Some might be of importance for the future because of the number of unique ancestors.

Before in another topic on the spermbank there was a specification of lines in the UK available. Direct tail male only two left. If these ancestors dive up say 50.000 times way back but are not in Russian pedigrees, that could be of importance.

As for your agression notes, nearly all IS from UK cultures derive from a direct tail male line in which the probably genetic agressiveness was. There were a few lines more where this was in. In one of the first stories of the very first IS here 19th century, agressiveness was in. If I remember well, his last one was fatal when he bit a policeman. By way of selection lines were cleared.

More working populations had bad hd results, if you read the John Nash memorial from the IRSC you can read about their stories. They are in pedigrees as well. If I remember well Crosse Elm, hd severe but descendants clear after a few generations. Here I recall in early hd times a mating hd severe x hd clear. After three to four generations clear.

Clad, pra etc there are tests available.