Animal Protection: Stop inbreeding, open registries, ban unhealthy breeds, curtail shows

[Henk ten Klooster]

Ban unhealthy breeds, attack inbreeding by opening up of registries permanently, stop breed standard exaggeration, curtail shows.

That is the advice of the Animal Protection the Netherlands (Dierenbescherming). With more than 40% of purebred dogs something is wrong, states the organization. Main source of that according to Animal Protection: dogshows.

Most Dutch media were focusing on this these days, after broadcasting of the British documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed on television.

How is that in your culture and what is your opinion?

[Margaret Sierakowski]

" I wonder how big gene pool of dingo in Australia?"

Why, are you thinking of outcrossing? Should increase the sheepkilling ability of Irish Setters.

[Cheryl Gorey]

The dingo is an ancient type of dog however, it readily breeds with domestic dogs, so the problem is it's difficult to tell ah, a hybrid from a pure animal in the wild. Recent research wtih DNA testing identified that most dingo populations in Australia were 80% hybrids. Some were 100%. So, to answer your question Gennadi, the gene pool is probably pretty big as the dingo will take a domesticated bitch into its pack to breed with, so wherever the dingo lives close to properties with dogs, the gene pool is much larger.

There is one island off the coast in Queensland where the population is pure Dingo. They believe there are about 120 dingo on this Island at the moment, so you would expect a fairly high COI in that group, but I haven't read anything about this ATM.

[Cheryl Gorey]

No, they haven't been saved yet and the Dingo population in Australia is facing extinction. A number of dingoes on the island have been culled as they have, in the past, attacked tourists. There are talks to place the pure populations into protected areas, otherwise, the dingo will be lost to hybridation and extinction of its' pure form, however, everything comes at a price!!

"to maintain pure populations of wild Dingoes, large secure areas should be set up where Dingoes known to be pure can be released and allowed to live with minimal human interference. However, this scenario raises the issue of population control, restricted gene pools and all the associated problems."

"A ‘pure’ Dingo contains no dog genes. After extensive (20) DNA testing on blood samples biologists have concluded the dog has no domestic dog ancestry present." ".... research suggests the dog evolved from a wolf around 6000 to 10,000 years ago in southern Asia. Seafarers from that region introduced the animal to Australia about 5000 years ago where it befriended many indigenous tribes. The word Dingo derives from the Aboriginal name for dog and the animal was used by many tribes to hunt game." "Dingoes have certain needs that most households could not cope with as these dogs do not respond well to domestication or training"

Hope I didn't give too much info?

[eva ciechonska]

Oh Margaret - you crease me up. That is such a good response!!! I have discussed the gene pool of swedish wolves with by best mate Camilla. As the population is quite small so the gene pool must be, therefore, the COI would be high - you think, as the Dingos on the island off the coast in Queensland. Being shot by hunters reduces this even further. Wolves keep a close knit community so why do we not hear of genetic problems. Perhaps this is a time bomb waiting to happen and without new blood the population could wipe itself out by constant inbreeding???? They do breed selectively within their hierarchy - food for thought?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thanks for all contributions until now. But please stick to the topic. Wolves are not (yet) shown. Animal Protection (Dierenbescherming) wants to forbid dogshows, or at least demand a healthcerticate for each entry. Plus forbid breeding a few dogbreeds and inbreeding.

In topic: Animal Protection Netherlands: ban unhealthy breeds, attack inbreeding by opening up of registries permanently, stop breed standard exaggeration, curtail shows.

What do you think, should the purebred inbred Irish setter be banned from breeding to save further suffering?, is inbreeding a problem in Irish setters?, is opening up registries a solution?, is there exaggeration of breed standards in Irish setters causing health problems?(like bloat), are shows a cause of health problems in Irish setters?

Thanks for staying in topic!

[Cheryl Gorey]

Sorry, Henk, I will try to stay on topic! I will bite the bullet and hopefully you won't all "jump" on me!!!

I do not believe the purebred Irish Setter should be banned from breeding. Some inbred lines do not appear to carry the same problems as other inbred lines do. In the future, upper control limits on the maximum COI figure should be achievable, but I don't think we are there yet! .. certainly not in Australia as we have a small gene pool of UK type. Honesty about health issues and breeders being ethical about choices for breeding is paramount for improvements to be made with today's stock. There have been exaggerations of breed standards in both field and show types. The deep chest has been seen in the Irish Setter for many, many years, (looking at pictures of dogs of the 1930's the depth of chest appeared to be there back then) but do we have knowledge of health problems like bloat back in the early 1900's or has this been a modern problem that has come to the fore because of inbreeding or something else??

I know in Australia, most of the old Australian lines did not seem to have bloat problems (lines which were bred in 70's forward, but there have been incidences more recently in both the UK and American types here. The field lines appear to have problems with bad hips more than in the show lines in Australia. Some particular lines I have seen aggression which is totally foreign to the breed standard! So, again, testing and ethical breeding standards are imperative for everyone to follow the same code of selection with health and temperament being the No 1 priority for all breeders around the world.

I don't understand the term "opening up registries a solution?" This may be a UK, Europe process that I am not aware of in Australia.

As I am not familiar with the field lines as much and not knowledgeable on the lineage behind them, can I ask: The breeders who breed field IS, how do you continue to breed your stock without inbreeding? Wouldn't every type - American, UK (show types) and field types in all countries all deal with the same issues when choosing selection of dogs and bitches for breeding. I have also seen extremes in the field lines, where they don't even look like IS where breeders, I presume, choose for other traits other than the structure of the dog, so they lose the structure of the dog, they loose head shape and expression, but the dog may be more successful in the field because they have chosen to prioritise other traits.

I think we would be niave to think that only show IS have health problems!

Unfortunately, I think the only way we can have certain things mandated is to have an authority like we all have in our Countries (ANKC (Australian National Kennel Club and other type bodies around the world) legislate a code of ethics and monitor the registration of pups and tighten up the mandatory testing of health problems. All owners of dogs who have bloated, had epilepsy, entropian, MO, etc need to stand up and be open about their experiences and breeders and stud dog owners need to also be open and honest for the best breed mates selection to occur. I believe we have made good progress in this area in recent years.

I have been enlightened and truly appreciative of the honesty of a number of people (strangers who don't know me) who have been very honest about health issues that are in the lines of their dogs when I have asked the questions. Some of the people who I have spoken to are on ES and I thank them all for their honesty and openness.

WE ALL love this wonderful breed and I believe we all need to work together and not pull each other apart to ensure that we have a great future as we hold the health of these very special dogs firmly in our hands and we are caretaking them for future generations.

We can become destructive and have a "blame" game, but it will do nothing to preserve the breed for the future. If we are all honest, we will then know how bad some of the problems are. As researchers before have said, the real hip score is probably 3 times higher than what we know because we only score the ones that we want to breed with and if the vet thinks the score may be a bit high, then breeders/owners don't even worry about getting the score done! Problem solved!!! until the next set of bad hips comes along.

I'll finish here!, thanks

[Henk ten Klooster]

It is a appples and pears to compare coi's of American horseback FT red setters with others. Mainly in UK influenced cultures, correct and full pedigrees became (it was different before!!!) holy since onset of PRA.

The horseback FT red setters is a different scene where The Old Religion was practised. That is outcrossing to other setterbreeds and pointers.Old Religion, because that was practice long before dog registry and even quite some time during registry, you can still see that in the Bird Dog Museum in Tennessee.

Even if the registry is correct of red setters, it still is apples and pears because the number of founding families (and with it the number of unique ancestors) is probably far bigger than nowadays UK showbred Irish setters.

The number of founding families was also broadened in the Irish working culture by John Nash (Moanruad), bringing in under more old Irish red and white setter blood fifties/sixties. This was a unique moment in Irish setter history, in a time where the number of founding families quickly dived in the UK.

[Susan Stone]

How is that in your culture and what is your opinion?

OK, Henk, back to the subject...

I am pleased to say that the Swiss Kennel Club (SKG) has in recent years become more open to ideas of outcrossing. There is an increased awareness of health and temperament at shows and judges are instructed accordingly during training.
Show judges go through various training courses which include behaviour, anatomy and genetics by Dr. Heinrich Binder where risks of inbreeding (and linebreeding) are explained. There are also training courses for breeders.

The SKG has a key role in supporting the creation of a 'new' healthy Bulldog called the 'Continental Bulldog' and has a special registry for dogs of unclear origin (Anhangregister). These dogs can be included in breeding programmes after being assessed by breed specialists and apporoved by breed clubs. The Bernese Mountain Dog breed club allowed an outcross to a Newfoundland and had the support of the SKG to do so.

So I'd say banning shows is not the way forward, but educating judges and breeders and the public is. Also being open for new ideas and being prepared to leave the beaten track.

[Susan Stone]

Sorry Gennadi, I did not express myself clearly. With outcrossing I mean to a different breed. Is this done in Sweden?

[ursula wilby]

I know I am not Gennadi...but outcrossing in Sweden to different breeds...not under the rules of the swedish kennel-club.

[Susan Stone]

Educating judges about genetics makes sense to me. You are of course free to have your own opinion on the matter.

[eva ciechonska]

I think that any one who breeds, should be interested in genetics. Educating breeders about genetics makes more sense to me than educating judges. In the UK where most judges are breed specialists then I can understand the point because as breeders they should already have the knowledge but I cannot see how it should help them as a judge. In all other countries, unless you get a breed specialist from the UK the Irish Setters (in fact most breeds) are judged by non-breed specialists and very often by judges from a different group altogether. They would most definitely NOT know anything about specific breed genetics, nor care, nor do they show any interest in breed type. So how would work. We all know that when it comes to inherited characteristics different breeds have different genetic markers so you cannot apply the same overall rules?????? I am afraid I agree with Aleks on this one.
I know that we all think maybe out-crossing to a different line, or even worse, a different breed might be the way forward to reduce the incidence of inherited problems. But loss of breed type, character, temperament, coat colour etc aside without real knowledge of genetics we could be playing a very dangerous game (Frankenstein's monster). I think we should set our minds and our resources to finding out the mode of inheritance of say, MO, Epilepsy, GDV where they are proved to carry a genetic predisposition and establishing, where ever possible DNA tests to wipe out these debilitating diseases. Let's not play God with our, or any other breed.