Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[colette tuite]

Eva the honest answer to your question is that i just dont know. I know that many years ago a pointer field trial man from the north of ireland said that ALL the field irish setters in the north of Ireland were agressive!.One famous breeder told me that the ftch father of a dog later to become a field trial ch was a sheep killer!!,although i heard from several sources that his previous owner didn't treat the dog well!.

I remember seeing an Irish setter at the ST Patricks Day show in Ballsbridge Dublin in the early 70,s being aggressive and was very surprised he was later exported to Sweden and now features heavily in the backgrounds of the Swedish working Irish.Swedish field triallers describe animals as being sparky. I am not sure what they mean by this?

I have seen some of the dogs shown in some of the recommended web sites mentioned in this debate who i knew were aggressive but this did not stop them getting used for stud? Aggressiveness did not seem to be a consideration that the working fraternity worried about.I have seen progeny from a field trial champion who John Nash and Ray O'Dyer sing the praises producing aggressive offspring to a breeder in England many moons ago. Maybe if the triallers dogs were kept in a kennel outside it may be of no consequence if they were aggressive but you would not want a trait like that to contaminate your own stock if it had nice temperments and lived with the rest of your dogs in the house!

I believe dwarfism appeared from progeny from an Irish working line in Norway some years ago.
Susan is right there is an extremely limited gene pool left in England .You can count it on the one hand!! Out of the 3 field trial dogs my Mother used (2 being field trial champions) one litter produced HD and quirky temperments and the other litter produced the ugliest puppies we ever had, some of which had under shot mouths and further more did not seem to have any working apptidude adding insult to injury!! Believe me there is nothing worse that having an ugly field trial dog who doesnt work ! Every time you breed a field litter you take a leap of faith that is why if you chose a nice looking one hopefully at least you will have something niceto look at in the future! This only holds true if you care what the Irish should look like- if you dont then anything goes!!

John Nash had experienced the under shot syndrome for himself.Puppies that had good mouths as young pups later became undershot. Clad also affected the irish field trial setters!

I have also seen top winning show dogs in England show aggressive natures and unsurprisingly successive generations also.This would suggest there is a genetic component to this trait?

The bottom line is do not believe everything you read you really need to see things for yourself to get the full story.

[Ossian]

Colette I find myself nodding furiously as I read your posts.

I am not surprised, but I am disappointed that the IS in UK is displayiong temperament issues. My first breed is the Gordon and I am horrified at the increase in interest in Gordons in the field.

The mix max now is partly because It is definitely a vogue to "work" your Gordon

Much of the temperament issues have arisen from the desire a) to to have a flashy show male and of course , the drawback is that "attitude" brings its own issues.

and b)- in an attempt to attach itself to the field Gordon there has been a level of crossing over and I here "weekend triallers" claim quite brazenly that the bitch they have (in whelp) is a "working bitch" and that is why she is "sharp".

Gordon temperament has long gone out of the window and I presume that Irish is heading that way too.

[colette tuite]

Well Ossian i would have to say that i have never seen the Irish of the top handlers of Irish setters in England/Scotland who regularly trial 4 or 5 dogs at a time ever show bad temperment however bad temperment has been in evidence at trials in some triallers stock.When i have made comments about the offending dogs to one of the top handlers who had similar lines they commented it was the way these dogs were kept??
I do not want to suggest that all the working Irish setters in the uk have temperment problems!

[Margaret Sierakowski]

II know at least one breeder of working setters who prefers his dogs to be "sharp" in temperament as he believes it makes them more competitive. Up to a point he may be right,although it can go too far, nobody likes to see dogs being aggressive at field trials , and when one hears of a sudden and unexpected death of arelatively young male dog in the kennels, one starts to wonder what happened
Another breeder of FT setters told years ago me that any dog that started a fight in his kennels wouldnt see the sun go down, he would shoot them, and it wasnt just talk. But by eliminating the sharper dogs from his breeding, his dogs started to go the other way, some of them became too soft, and were lacking in drive .One started to hear complaints that some didnt work at all
There has to be a middle way,.dogs that are competitive and have drive but not killers.
And one has to be careful with them - the dog that is competitive with birds, the one that is out there to find and point a bird before the bracemate gets to it,is also the dog that is going to be competitive around food bowls and bitches in season!

[eva ciechonska]

Margaret. Is it really necessary for dogs to be 'sharp' to be competitive? How do they work as a brace? A balanced temperament is one aspect which the great majority of the show Irish excel at. But then the emphasis on competitiveness rests with the exhibitors, and we all know there are many suspect temperaments there (very tongue in cheek!!).
On a more serious note, bringing in bad temper is not something that I would relish as my dog and bitches all live in the house, they are fed together and never show sharpness around the food bowl, towards each other when the bitches are in season or to any other dogs.
My other question follows on from Melinda who asks whether the working dogs are tested for known inherited problems and are they entered in health programmes, eye tests etc. as the show dogs are? If not then how would outcrossing to a working dog improve the health of the show dog......we would still be stabbing in the dark.

[Henk ten Klooster]

If the impression given is that health has deteriorated it is only because it is more discussed, wrote Eva.
Near to all experts I've read document exactly the reverse. Another development sixties-now easily to be tracked is huge decline of families in the breed, described as biggest danger for breeds future. So documented. That makes quoted undocumented opinion dangerous for breeds future.
This reply does not show up where the reply was made.

[Melinda Auld]

Given the debates raging about what the field lines dogs have been crossed with (in America, if not anywhere else...), then I guess you could argue the field dogs have a wider gene pool - simply due to the introduction of other breeds.

Are the field people testing their dogs for diseases like the show people are? If not, how do we really know that problems don't exist? No one is going to work or trial an unhealthy dog - are these dogs then pet-homed? If not, what else?

Is there really an accurate picture of the health of field-bred dogs? Which representative body is responsible for ensuring or maintaining such a thing? Or is it left entirely to breeders? In which case...are field breeders more like than show breeders to test their dogs and only breed from healthy stock??

The cynic in me says that breeders from all sides will breed from the dogs that win - whether that be in the field, or in the ring.

[Carmel Murphy]

It is very sad that any dog can be mistreated or abandoned, especially when you have so many caring people here in Ireland who rescue dogs every year and give them loving homes. We also have so many more happy setters living all over Ireland from good breeders who take great care in where their pups are homed to!! For all the rescued working setters there are so many more in super homes!! And shame on anyone who mistreats any breed(working or otherwise)or the puppy farmers who just churn out litter after litter just for money!! Very sad;o(

[kristi schrittwieser]

Lol, Sue,
It's probably an American /Irish mix. He probably ran over from the US, ha ha.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

I dont think you should make generalisations or assume that many people who breed working setters in Ireland abandon dogs like this.
There are simply a lot of working setters in Ireland, you only have to look at the volume of ads on donedeal.ie to get an idea of how many
Its usually not the breeders who abandon the dogs, its the people who have bought them as puppies but they dont turn out to be good working dogs, either they havent got it, or they havent had the training. Then what happens? Very few people want a failed working setter, who hasnt been housetrained, as a pet, and they end being put down or dumped up in the pounds , some get put down there ,others get picked up by rescue and are brought to the UK. People who are brave enough to take one on dont have an easy time , they are often shy and poorly socialised and who wants an unhousetrained adult dog living inside the house?
They are a problem, and I dont have any easy answers to what one does with failed and unwanted gundogs of any breed . Some people will be outraged at putting them down, but it can be the kindest option
And if you think this is an Irish problem, start asking questions about the number of unwanted, badly treated working springers with all kinds of health and temperament problems who get dumped in the UK. Its a lot more dogs than the working setters rescued from Ireland

[eva ciechonska]

Breed Record spring Supplement showed the number of IS puppies registered in the UK as 847. The registrations go down a small amount every year. This is not much when you compare it with other popular gundog breeds. If there are a lot of working Setters in Ireland would anybody know the number being bred/registered annually?
Most breeders of show IS take back unwanted puppies they have bred. Would not that be the case with the working IS?
I know how heavily most breeders vet pet even show homes and with the best will in the world we can get it wrong. But at least there is a back-up service.
Margaret, If there are too many working Setters in Ireland are you saying that they are being bred indiscriminately? Your other point "it is usually not the breeders who abandon their dogs, it's the people who have bought them as puppies and they don't turn out to be good working dogs....." So where is the responsibility of the breeders in all this? These dogs are as good as abandoned by them, "they are often shy and poorly socialised and who wants an unhoustrained adult dog living inside the house?" What a sad indictment of the working gundog world........

[eva ciechonska]

Forgot to add that the total number of registered IS was for the year 2009.