Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[eva ciechonska]

Agreed Carmel but the forechest is also refered to as "heartroom". Interestingly a dog can have a broad front and no forechest or sternum bone, or a "cathedral" front where the chest is concave under the sternum bone. The standard calls for "chest as deep as possible, rather narrow in front" but it is still possible to have a forechest. In my personal experiences with IS many youngsters with a pronounced sternum can lose it when they become juniors. A bit like teenagers going gangly. They can aslo lose their spring of rib and become shelly. Then it all comes back......the sternum fills in, the ribs spring again and the chest drops. It is a phenomenon maybe peculiar to setters and everyone agrees they are a slow developing breed.

[Carmel Murphy]

I agree you can still have forechest but I dont think the dog needs a "prominent" forechest(which almost looks like a busty female!!!) to have heart room or lung room;o) And yes I agree that setters go through some strange changes as youngsters before they look finished;o)

[eva ciechonska]

Carmel, there is something very satsfying when you are going over a dog to feel forechest and I would prefer to see more rather than an empty hole......but then I am a show judge......nought wrong with a bit of bust!!!!! Interesting that many dogs who have no forechest can move either too wide or too narrow in front. Forechest seems to give cohesion to front action.

[Carmel Murphy]

"empty hole" is not what I mean by less forechest!! I dont like that either but my point is that the exaggerated forechest is not necessary in a setter for heart anf lung room or good movement!!!!!!! Both of my best movers Rua and daughter Abbey have small forechests but good spring of rib and depth of chest!! And probably you would consider them a bit narrow in front(as per breed standard) And I dont mean two legs coming from one hole;o)) Not that narrow;o)) The setter is not a broad fronted breed!!

[Ossian]

nought wrong with a bit of bust!!!!!
LOL You couldnt get more than me!!! Ive tried low tops an everything. Doesnt work on the red and white judges!! LOL

[Henk ten Klooster]

Just a question is this debate on the head of the humerus? Theres nothing in the standard on that! Does anyone know what function the head of humerus has? Is it more than just bone?
As for dogs seen - I remember Derrycarne Harp missed a prominent head of humerus as well. The most prominent I saw were good movers short track, often bad while galloping. Coincidence? Interesting!

[eva ciechonska]

Carmel, I have dogs withe forechest and I like it like that. Their fronts are not wide and their forehand movement is good. The forechests on you dogs aren't prominent, and you like it like that. As the standard is not specific on this point than neither of us are right or wrong. So it boils down to personal preference. We all know that the setter is not a broad fronted dog, The preferences of both field trialers and exhibitors has been well documented here so we are going round in circles on this one. Let us agree to disagree then.

[Carmel Murphy]

I am all for agreeing to disagree;o)) Always at it!! ;o))

[eva ciechonska]

Ossian, used to work really well on the red judges but then they were more full blooded in those days now they are all a pile of women!!!!! Maybe we should start a Forum on whether judges have changed since the sixties..........

[Ossian]

ROFLMAO

Red blooded judges .... Q here!!!

[eva ciechonska]

Me needing further education.........what is ROFLMAO??

[Ossian]

rolling on the floor laughing my ass off. I have always wondered how you can laugh your ass off but there you go. Its "on message"