Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[eva ciechonska]

We all stand up and support the side of the fence we fall on but we all come together with our common love and appreciation for our dogs. I am sure that whether we show or work our dogs we do what is best for them. IS don't ask to be worked nor do they ask to be shown. They do it because we want them to.
There is no anger here. Frustration....yes. Heated debate....yes. Fighting......no!

[kristi schrittwieser]

I meant the NRSFTC has been at odds with AKC and ISCA for quite some time. I don't trial so I'm not involved nor do I want to be involved. You know my feelings about AKC. I t I will have to say it wasn't me wanting my setter to hunt, She wanted to hunt always. I always took her to the field and woods but it wasn't because I wanted her to hunt it was because if she didnt her spirit would have died. She was bred first and foremost as a hunting dog. Great in the house, loving and loyal as could be. She waited for me every morning and I went with her because I dedicated my life to a hunting dog. She could never had made it as a house pet in someones back yard. Her spirit would have died. It was not easy for me by no means. But this is the dog I fell in love with.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Her spirit would have died, snotno party! Great reading Kristi.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Ha Ha henk, lol.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Cassie,
I have been to field trials in Kansas. A side from that I have not been. My dogs breeder was involved in IS field trials for 37 years. She bred field dogs as far back as 83 and started out with bench dogs. She wrote the come back of the red setter on NRSFTC's website. She quit the club due to AKC. As far as the IS in the field is concerned read Field and Streams article. I am sure you can still find it online. It covers the whole story about the IS in America. It states the IS looks as if it will no longer be on the field unless there is a new strain of blood brought into the breed to bring back its natural instincts. Wether breeding for hunting or trialing bench IS's have not been part of any avid hunters breeding stock. The mix is usually found in puppy mills. The first question I ever heard from a hunter in the US was is it bench stock or field stock. And that was about 2 weimaranars that needed homes. Look at the english setters, spaniels, pointers, labs, etc. They are split into field and bench stock. Why is it such a big deal. It is not fair that just the red setter is having all this difficulty. The original dog was bettered all throughout history. Evolution occurs. Is a field ES a better hunter then a bench ES. Would a hunter choose the bench to hunt with? Why is this such an argumant. So they bettered the breed big deal. No experienced hunter will buy a pet springer, weimeranar, cocker, lab, english setter to hunt with. These people look for hunting stock. But I guess the hunters can't look for IS hunting stock because all they get is a problem. Hunters with different breeds are standing behind the NRSFTC they want the dog to suceed. The ISCO has made it very difficult for them. And yes they got AKC to stop registering them. They did it, not AKC. AKC and the FDSB had a close relationship. They agreed to register the dog. As far as Vizslas go they might be competing in AKC events and I know they are good hunting dogs. They are not big enough runners to compete in horseback trials against pointers and setters. I am not saying they don't but many more red setters do and they are a complete minority breed. There beauty will ruin that breed. They are being bred more and more in the US as pets. The people want them. This is just what happen to the setters. I agree with you about the tail it should not matter. The high tail was the field ES in them. I don't think it should matter. Who am I to say I don't have my setter any longer. She passed away. But that dog could run. She was racy, stylish, smart as a whip and could hunt. I mean hunt anything. She was not trained on birds but she instinctually ran perimeters immediately when put on birds. She had a staunch point and did have a high tail. I like the looks of the hunting IS in Europe better but I have to admit I am not interested in what AKC calls an IS in the US. It is my opinion. I like field IS's looks much better. I am sure your dog is a great hunter and would not take that away from you. I don't think I would go out and buy a big setter if I was close to a lot of land and was planning on hunting.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

" Please take this on board. Working Setters have the same health problems, plus "

Well, they have some of the same problems but not all. For example I have never met a working setter with epilepsy or MO, bloat is almost unknown

[Bogacheva Elena]

Unfortunately in Russia there are cases of an epilepsy at working Irish setters. Bloat very big problem at Russian line. Every year dogs from working Russian lines dies of bloat, this year is already saddened.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Are they really from only working lines, or are there show dogs in the pedigrees?

[Bogacheva Elena]

There are lines where there are no show dogs. There are hunters who very much like to work and hunt and the Irish setter, but having buried from a bloat not one dog they have preferred other breeds. In our club last case of a bloat at a pure Russian line was about five years ago. It was necessary to exclude this line from cultivation. It was very good hunters.

[JOANNE]

Elena I admire your honesty. But sadly there are dogs dying around the world from these conditions and the owners will allow them to be used at stud and will lie or avoid the truth because the lines are winners in the show ring. But there are also a lot of honest breeders like yourself who have helped me over the years and I feel it is these people who are the true lovers of the breed, the ones who can stand back and look at the health conditions in certain lines and much as it hurts, for the betterment of the breed, terminate the reproduction in those lines

[Susan Stone]

I'm afraid epilepsy seems to crop up in both working and show lines. How frequently is a different matter... As the true numbers are unknown it is impossible to truly make a statement. HD is known in working and show lines also. However I would assume that a lighter dog as in the working tye is unlikely to suffer as much from arthritic pain as the heavier show type. Muscle can compensate a lot in a dog weighing 20 - 25 kg.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Hi Susan,
Epilepsy has been showing up in both US show and field lines in the US.