International Irish Setter Club

[Susan Stone]

At the following link you can read the minutes of the International Irish Setter Club. I do not know anything about this club except a bit of hearsay. I do see there is a swiss representative...
I wonder if anyone can tell me more about this club and what their position is legally when it comes to discussing breed matters with the FCI?

see http://www.setter-pointer.ch/Proces_verbaux_Clubinternationnaux.htm - the minutes of the last meeting - in english!

[Christiane Lohmann]

Maybe because they want to change the breed into an easy-to-sell creature that fascinates people only for the face and the look and the sweet temperament and not for nose, passion, style and the special breed characteristics ?
It is so many times easier to breed for show and get big applause and all the audience instead of having shivering goose-skin highlights in rainy fields by great dog work. Only seen by a few people who join the proud owner out hunting.
But when the hunting characteristics are lost in the breed, there is no way to get them back. It is a question of being responsable for a gundog breed and not change it into a member of the toy group.
And yes, we have enough breeders, who are proud to announce that they have managed to lower the hunting instincts of their products and make them easy to handle also for old people living on 2nd floor in town.

Would you regard this the right way for the IS ?

[Leen De Leebeeck-Van Genechten]

You're absolutely right! An Irish setter should remain a GUNDOG! but also an Irish setter, no red dog running across a field and pointing a bird; It should have all the characteristics of an Irish setter, both in working capacities as in beauty!
And there's my worries with the International Irish setter club, I'm worried that they will concentrate on working capacities, forgetting that the red dog should still be an Irish setter.
And of course, we shouldn't forget those Irish setter owners who don't show or hunt, who just want a 'family dog', and experience has told me that both field trial & show type can get used to being 'couch potatoes'.

In my opinion an Internaional club should get show & field trial people together to find standards for healthy dogs who match the standard of the FCI of an Irish setter and are still capable of doing the job they were originally bred for, regardless of the fact whether we have the opportunity to work them or not (I know the problem of finding field, game etc...)!

[Susan Stone]

Henk, I am dismayed at your reaction. You are prooving my own sentence wrong (I wrote: Looking at this list you see that ALL interests are represented and although the discussions may run emotionally high sometimes, in the end each of us can accept that the other may have a different - but also valid - opinion. )

[Henk ten Klooster]

Why not protect our own Nightwatcher, the working instinct? Why change it for graffiti just because a group says we live now, so we need that room and we are a majority?

Why discuss a group of people trying to preserve a kind of living museum, a very vulnerable working instinct, on the basis of "hearsay" (quote Susan). Why not ask them for info. A telephonecall to a Swiss representative isnt expensive Susan.

Why start pissing a person simply pointing at vulnerability of a Nightwatcher? Why stating there is no room for Nightwatchers anymore, when you see them even here running fields and mountains? Do you really think a Porsche without a motor in it,. is still a Porsche?

By the way Leen your points on health, bridging etc. are all backed. But thats another topic.

[ursula wilby]

Interesting that you should bring a Porsche in to this discussion Henk.
As an ex-Porsche owner/enthusiast, I can assure you that it is the OUTSIDE that make a Porsche (and all other classic cars as well).

Lets say you had a perfect Porsche in your garage (minus engine), that would still be a Porsche.
But you could never say THAT about an engine, even if it had Porsche stamped all over it! An engine can be fixed and replaced...you would have far more difficulty with the rest of the car! :-)

[Susan Stone]

Why discuss anything with you, Henk?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Susan and others - if you discuss organizations it is decent and wise to get your information (facts) on the table before you start suggesting, fearing, blaming, flaming etc. So don't start from "hearsay" (see topic).

Especially when it deals with such a very vulnerable and precious soul of the breed, its working instinct. Where there is -according to more people- a need to bridge worlds in the Irish setter fraternity, it is stupid to bomb all bridges before. That is what you do talking about and not with those organizations.

I know this club from its cradle and long before.

At least a part of it was the lifework of a Dutchman, Rembrandt Kersten, after spending the biggest part of his life in a quest to make the working Irish setter survive & revive. Another result from that was the first book mainly dedicated to working Irish Setters in Dutch language written by him, see for that click the English flag next menubar left bottom "Living near a river inspires working setter book".

Rembrandt Kersten died Autumn last year, a season after publishing the book. So one of the people memorized in "The Irish Red Setter its history, character and training", the first book written by an Irishman (Raymond O'Dwyer) on the breed since 83 years published last Winter. It starts with: "This book is dedicated to those people, alive and dead, whose interest in and dedication to the Irish red setter has ensured its survival as a working dog."

I don't doubt, Susan, that you have best interests for the breed at heart - your posts, topics etc. prove it. So I cannot believe that you wish something else than a future for islands of working cultures in Irish setters still left on this planet but nearly not represented on this website so leave a few fragile bridges undamaged.

In case you will still continue to discuss with third parties, I'm sure you will understand why I refrain from reactions even when pure personal attacks are launched. As for that personal attack: I've done all possible activities (including shows) with Irish setters but prefer now one man one dog out in the fields alone sceneries. So I have some right to speak saying only show is loving the breed the lazy way, I had my lazy days. That is something else than condemn anyone, its simply saying my setters love me for my way of life now much more!

Beautiful pics by the way and showing a passion to share by many more!

Henk.

[Susan Stone]

Thanks, Henk, for finding words more suitable for discussion on a public forum than in your previous posts.
What I have difficulty with, is when sweeping statements are made with the intention of offending, hereby distracting from any kind of constructive discussion. You have every right to speak - just as everyone else has a right on a personal opinion without resorting to being offensive. I normally value your knowledge and input.
In writing it is not always clear what is meant, not like talking face to face where you can ask back. I am not aware of having launched a personal attack, quite the opposite, I felt I had received one...

I see no problem in discussing the 'International Club' in this forum and am grateful for the input that has been forthcoming. I consider the discussion closed.