Conflict over COI

[Henk ten Klooster]

“A first step forward for future” is how the committee of the Dutch Irish setter club describes a proposal to forbid combinations for breeding with a higher coefficient of inbreeding (coi) than five. Reason is “a rise of inheritable defects” like epilepsy, showing a clear connection with COI above five. A group of mostly show breeders tries to prevent this new rule being accepted on the annual general meeting. They launch another proposal, maintaining freedom of breeders to breed above that maximum.
What is your opinion?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Good to see Lucy back here. As blogposts disappear quick here a copy of what was written on blogposts of Lucy & Lynn. It is very linked with the topic here.

Hello Lucy & Lynn,

It may be of importance for the future of the breed if you contact experts and breed clubs on what happened to the puppy. The described condition is contrary to what was written in a removed blogpost considered to be a genetical defect. If in this case PSS was acquired and so not from genetic background it is as well important to know that without any doubt.

It is of big importance for the future of the breed, because prolonged linebreeding (=inbreeding) in Irish setters, narrowing the genepole to just a few families means one problem result in many more in distant future. Most Irish setters nowadays are from just one family.

You can read more about PSS in highly inbred Irish Wolfhounds in "Lifespan and causes of death in the Irish Wolfhound: medical, genetical and ethical aspects". on the net: http://www.ths.vetsuisse.unibe.ch/lenya/housing/live/publications/D...

Groeten, Henk ten Klooster.

[Susan Stone]

Hi Henk,
I sometimes wonder how you dig these things up... even from the Swiss University of Berne, just 35 minutes from where I live:-) Thanks!

Seriously, I did not read all 131 pages but flew over it and picked some points out.
According to the artice it seems clear that PPS is due to a simple recessive trait in IRISH WOLFHOUNDS. What is not said is that PPS in other breeds is also a simple recessive trait. Possible, but not proven. The mode of inheritance in Irish Setters has not been determined (or do you know more?). On the net PPS is said to be found in Irish Setters, amongst others, so again it may be hereditary but not necessarily 'a simple recessive trait' .

What is very clearly pointed out in the article (seems to ring a bell...) is the risk of so-called 'genetic bottlenecks' due to the excessive use of only one or two particular studdogs within a certain timespan. By linebreeding in later generations a very high level of inbreedin has been reached.

One of the conclusions drawn in the article will ring familiar: (quote from 7.4.4.):
"Establishing an international open pedigree-linked health database would be an invaluable means of selection to improve health and longevity in the breed, but would need coordinated international cooperation as well as openness from the breeders' part concerning health problems in their dogs."

[Henk ten Klooster]

Hello Susan and others,

Yes the "genetic bottleneck" is what concerns most. After correspondence of Lucy/Lynn I checked the pedigree base (alas very one sided: predominantly show-only so missing a lot of families) for pedigrees of relevant Irish setters.

In a glimpse you can see the coefficient of inbreeding (COI) over ten generations is very high. Another quick analysis: these are main lines of descent nowadays in most parts of the world showculture (not yet USA).

Plus: breeding COIs way over what is considered to be dangerous (5) is common practice.

On the basis of a private post (see my page) and a lot of signals from others, it becomes clear that many breeders are not aware of the fact that a high COI may mean a higher degree of inbreeding than a father/daughter mating.

In other words a well documented superclose breeding in the UK (between the famous Twoacres T's) probably had less inbreeding than nowadays average show winning Irish setter in the UK and cultures building on them.

This means the essence of debates and what is called a "bad press" did not reach breeders or they do not understand it. This is also documented by some reactions in topics here.

The flow of information on Lucy's case is in itself worth a study.

A lot of human and doggy misery comes directly from a low level of knowledge on the now most burning question in dogdom. So I fully underline your point before, now mirrored in the quote that measures worldwide should be taken.

Ofcourse I still hope this case of PSS was acquired and not genetic... Because in last case, we will end up with a lot of misery so lots of Lucy's. And we need people like her ringing alarmbells. Cherish them!

Cheers, Henk.

[Johanna Blacklake]

Have you already read this article: The Rising Storm: What Breeders Need to Know about the Immune System?

I think that autoimmune disease and allergies are the most worring thing in our breed thesedays. There should be more open discussion on them. Maybe CLAD has been some kind of a gateway to others, like thyroiditis, AIHA/IMHA, Addisons, lotsa skin desease, myasthenia gravis and lots of others. And maybe I should even take down MO which is not an autoimmune disease itself, but can be caused by some of the previously mentioned.

[Dee Rance]

Yes you may well be correct about one thing leading to another, I had a bitch that suddenly lost all white and red sell production it was a 'rare blood disorder' put in a different way 'autoimmune' problems I was asked, by the vets, to go down the road of bone marrow transplants etc etc but just couldn't bring myself to put such a beautiful and trusting animal through that, (as everyone thought that it just wouldn't help anyway), she was 4 years old, and yes the breeders said 'we have never had that in our lines before, it must have been something that you did' unfortunately if you are told that enough then you begin to believe it, although I must say I haven't heard of any of her siblings having this problem, but I did hear of one of her relatives having the same problem, but there are a LOT of them. These subjects should be looked into more, and if the UKKC, are true to their word, then some of it will be, but again I say that it need breeders and owners to addmitt their first is a problem,
I don't think that people should go to the authorities just because they have found something wrong with their particular animal but ask around 'privately' and get more information from others of the same litter first then from the same lines, get your facts rite and then go to the authorities (your KC) and let them take it on with your help, I must say this could take many month/years, so be observant and don't go too far with the inbreeding unless you know EXACTLY what is behind your lines (a long way back, many generations back)

[Henk ten Klooster]

To get the debate back on topic: do you think its time to forbid breeding above a certain coi percentage like was done in the Netherlands? What maximum (5 = Holland) over how many generations (10= Dutch rules)? What if nearly all in certain cultures (Irish red and white setters) are all over 5? Stop dividing Irish setters over colors or continue?

[Dee Rance]

Must have done something wrong yesterday (it was a bad day) I did reply to this....Yes it would be a good idea to put a limit on the COI as they have done in Holland but at what limit would you put it?? and who would enforce it?? I personally haven't got the foggiest.... At the beginning it would have to be put at a pretty low level because a lot of pedigrees are like mine (far too high) so there would have to be something like a 5 year plan to get these such pedigrees back to a reasonable COI and then it could be built to a somewhat safer level, I don't know, I am not a geneticist. Its my daughter that should be asked, she's a high flying Quantitative Molecular Geneticist, she doesn't seem to think that it is too bad to in-breed, but with greater knowledge as to what is in those lines. I don't understand anything more than the basics of this subject, it is all on 'gut instinct' that I speak....only my opinion. It has been said that I am very self opinionated.

[ursula wilby]

I think a limit on the COI is a very good idea. It is applied (amongst others) in the french Bulldog-club in Sweden. Maximum 6.25% is allowed and preferably far less. The way it is enforced is that your litter will have the "stamp of approval" from the breed-club. (This actually requires a few other things like heartcheck and Patella OK etc).

I suppose it makes any buyer aware of WHAT they are buying as the COI-numbers are public.

On the other hand french Bulldogs are a breed that, compared to irish setters, has got quite a few problems.
Comparativly speeking I STILL consider the irish setter to be a very healthy breed! And if the size of litters is supposed to show the healthyness of a breed...they certainly are. But we have been over that many times before...

[Dee Rance]

We are talking about people that care about the breeds that we have, be them French Bulldogs or Irish Setters, most of us on this site will keep the COI to a minimum but there are people out there who ''don't give a damn'' or just don't know, just so-long as they get their money for the puppies. Will this limit be enforced by the Kennel Club or will it be self enforced. In the UK the KC will find it very difficult to enforce, as has been said before there are ways round these things. What about the 'pet people' who want to breed their pet bitch with their friends pet dog they no nothing about COI or anything resembling it, their dogs could be the highest COI that you could think of where does the KC stand or the owners of the two dogs stand. Will they be able to register their puppies, if this is a loophole then everyone will try it, if not then the people with the pets will not get them registered. Yes perhaps this is the correct way to go, it will make all our work worth while!!!

[ursula wilby]

We have allready got the rule where both dogs must pass certain healthtests before you can register a litter in the kennelclub.

For irish setters this is free from CLAD and free hips (A or B).

If it would include COI, I think that is just fine, and yes you would end up with the "pet-breeder" not being able to register their puppies if their dogs do not comply to the rules.

I think that is good.

And yes there are some upset puppy-buyers about that have ended up with puppies that can not be registered. But then not only should you know about the basics before you start breeding, you should also know the basics before you buy a dog!

Educating people is the only way to go.

[Dee Rance]

HERE-HERE!!!!! Ursula

[Henk ten Klooster]

Interesting to see theres only support here and no opposition against a maximum coi, only differences in a 'road to Rome' to be chosen.

How to do it: beneath titles also a coi over ten generations on pedigrees?

Ursula on what observation do you define the Irish setter as still a healthy breed? Over here is was found not a healthy breed when coi's are over 5.

Education - Not only buyers but as well a lot of breeders are not aware of the fact that what they see as linebreeding could be inbreeding with even a far higher coi than a father/daughter mating.

Last might explain why lecture number 1 in a breederscongress to be held in April by the Dutch Kennelclub is entitled 'Fact an fiction in linebreeding and inbreeding'.