Conflict over COI

[Henk ten Klooster]

“A first step forward for future” is how the committee of the Dutch Irish setter club describes a proposal to forbid combinations for breeding with a higher coefficient of inbreeding (coi) than five. Reason is “a rise of inheritable defects” like epilepsy, showing a clear connection with COI above five. A group of mostly show breeders tries to prevent this new rule being accepted on the annual general meeting. They launch another proposal, maintaining freedom of breeders to breed above that maximum.
What is your opinion?

[ursula wilby]

Henk, we have a whole thread regarding the health of irish setters!
And I dont know how many comments I made on that one.

I base the fact on what I see, the dogs I know, grow old. And I even worked out the average age of my own dogs for you. And it was well over the 10 years that vets consider to be the average age of a dog of any breed.

Secondly I think that a breed that will produce big healthy litters can not be too unhealthy generally speaking.

Thirdly we can not throw up our arms in horror every time we hear about a setter getting HD, EP, cancer...you name it and say this is due to high COI!
If this was the case, the human race would be free from all the illnesses mentioned. Most humans are the result of zero inbreeding and should therefor be 100% healthy and live to a ripe old age.
They dont, as we all know.

We have the enviroment to consider and also lifestyle which affects our dogs as much as it does us. Also there is the natural selection, not all specimens are as healthy as they should be. And that applys totally across the board...humans, animals and plants. It would seem strange if we were to expect the irish setter to be the only form of life that would produce perfect offspring all the time.

So yes, judging on what I see, the irish setter is a healthy breed.
But I may see different things to you.
Perhaps the setters you come across are differant.

[Johanna Blacklake]

I agree with Ursula, I do also think that Irish setter still is a _rather_ healthy breed. BUT we cannot close our eyes on the bad things either. If you do not xray the hips it's easy to say that there is no problem with them. The same goes with other health matters as well.

I think we have here in Scandinavia more open ground for discussion. Ok, it could be a lot better, but it's going to a better direction anyway. Most of the breeders do not anymore say that "never in my dogs, not in my lines", if they say that... well, at least _I_ think they are either telling lies or they are not aware. Fortunately problems are discussed more openly and some might even find help and support when the problems arise.

Like Ursula said: "It would seem strange if we were to expect the irish setter to be the only form of life that would produce perfect offspring all the time." Totally agree on this!!

[ursula wilby]

Dealing with problems within a breed needs people to be honest about it.
That is the most difficult step to take.

Way back (I think it was in the 80's) we had a breedclub-meeting where breeders were supposed to discuss problems they had had with their breeding.

The night before three of us had a meal and agreed on being TOTALLY honest. And we stuck to that.
Unfortunatly most of the other breeders had NEVER come across the problems we were talking about. In fact they had never had a single problem whatsoever. The end-result was that the three of us ended up looking as if we were the only ones ever having had anything go wrong with our dogs. Hence WE had sick dogs!

I can well understand the thoughts behind this.
If you have a winning dog and there is something wrong with him (not too obvious and nothing that shows up in the ring) and you have loads of other breeders wanting to use him. It takes a lot of honesty to stand up and tell...it also requires you to have a decent income from something other than dogs. Its easier to convince yourself that whatever your dog has got will not affect his offspring, if your morgage is due and you have no other means of income.

I had a champion pug that (apart from being a show-champion) also had titles in obedience. And he was a good stud. After two litters he developed furunkolos (I dont know the english term for this, but the dog will get painful lumps between his toes. These lumps will eventually burst open. They are normally not present all the time but come and go. Comon in a lot of short-haired dogs like boxers. Assumed to be hereditory - but not proven.)
After the two litters I stopped him from further stud-duties and later found out that plenty of dogs in the breed had this condition and it just never stopped anyone from breeding! Well I had witnessed the agony this dog went through at times and thought no way!

For me the dogs are a hobby, I may have thought differently about it if this had been my sole income. I may even have been able to convince myself that if everyone is doing it, well who am I to argue with people that have been in the breed for so long?

It is easy to stand up and say: I would never...a totally different matter once you are there.

[Dee Rance]

Been there as well Ursula and I don't think that you would do anything differently, after seeing the stress your wee boy had with the 'foot problem' and knowing that it could, and most probably would, be passed on....As far as the being honest is concerned, a leopard cannot change its spots.....people are ether honest or they are not, there is always that little grey area, but not for something that really matters, although honesty can get you into trouble sometimes, cant it?????? But we have to live with the consequences don't we.....

[Johanna Blacklake]

And yet about the COI and setting limits to that. Before that kind of rather hard conditions are set, I think it would be wise to start publishing the COI of the planned litters and maybe even try to calculate the general COI for the whole stock, let's say within a country or so to begin with. I read somewhere that the COI for one breed should be only 1-2 %.

[Dee Rance]

There is a huge element of 'nature verses nurture' but the genetic make-up can only be 'influenced' by nurture it is there in the animal and can't be changed, (in that particular animal) we just have to learn to use it to advantage, and 'not' to disadvantage. It is only when you buy one of the very high COI lines, in ignorance, that you can see what the problems are.....the body shape etc is wonderful but its the problems that arise that aren't, and when you check with people who have the same lines and find that they too have the same problems then it doesn't take a genius to realise that there is something 'in the family' that is going wrong, and these animals should be taken out of any breeding program.
This said, hasn't it always been best to use 'prevention rather than cure' and if this part of the breeding program is taken care of it must be a step in the right direction. I think as Henk said we all seem to be in agreement as to the fact that we need something like a COI restriction, BUT how?? when?? and who?? is going to be the first KC to enforce it?????
It is said that the first thing to go is fertility when things are in-breed then the number of puppies and the frequency of small litters 'should' be an indication of something going wrong, but there are ways around the fertility problem as well.... It is the good breeders who 'put their hands up to A problem' they are the ones to get behind and help, instead of being shunned because they have breed something that has a problem, this isn't done deliberately it is just ignorance of what is in the lines. I said it before, 'the sooner something is said' the sooner it will be put rite' and a lowering of the COI has got to be the way to start......Most of us go on what we like as far as breeding is concerned and there are many many good breeders out there, that wouldn't dream of going into very high in-breeding. I think that the conversations on this site proves it, as we seem to be in agreement. There are many beautiful and healthy Irish Setters out there as well. Again this site proves this as well.........

[Henk ten Klooster]

Yes Dee we SEEM to agree. But IF its true that the Irish setter is still a "rather healthy breed" like Ursula, Johanna and Susan are saying or suggesting, we in fact disagree.

Most Irish setters today have an alarmingly high coi. IF this has not yet led to a situation different from a "rather healthy breed", than those scientists warning against high coi's are wrong. Truth is the Irish setter is a Light in Darkness. So lets spread the setterGospel: Don't worry be happy!!!:-))))

Where we REALLY seem to agree, is the need to maximise coi's, not yet knowing exactly how, when and by whom. So we do agree on the need to do something for future but most of us here say we do not see NOW that what we want to prevend in future, is happening already.

This is far beyond my logic......

[Dee Rance]

Agreement is only if you have healthy 'stock' (I refer to stock but really mean our beloved pets) when you have something go wrong with them, then you realise all is not well....and yes I am sure that most of the stock on this site is absolutely fine, although if you read some of the comments there are a few that have some really bad problems. People on the site are honest about their 'stock' but if there is a problem then we should all get our facts rite before anything is said, and what makes a problem in the breed? it is all relivant. BUT I still say we should be lowering the COI. Sooner rather than later..
Sorry I don't agree with ''Don't worry be happy'' being complacent is how problems get into a breed, whatever it is, KENNEL BLINDNESS is wrong you should always no the faults that your animal has, be them show faults or phisical problems.
But I do agree with the fact that it needs doing, the longer it takes to get this done the more problems will get into the breed. Perhaps these problems have always been there but come to the serface because of all the in-breeding.

[Henk ten Klooster]

In another topic Dianne Waldron stated: "I think we need to open the stud books and do some carefull out crossing for the health and well being of our dogs".

It is very relevant for this topic, so it would be intresting to get your opinion on that one.

Do we need to open studbooks or are there still enough families to lower the coi over long term? What breeds would you consider? Who can name families not or not so much related with mainstream USA/UK-cultures? And how do you think it can be prevented in future that say 85% of Irish setters become close relatives???

[Dee Rance]

I think that the latest topic plus the frozen Seaman and this topic, could all be put into one subject they are all connected as far as I can see. If the Stud Books were opened up, and the Sperm Banks were all connected anyone could then out-cross with all the information that is open to all to see. They all can be utilised in this way. If I was looking for AI on a cow, you would get the stud card of the bull that you were looking at, it would have all of his attributes, pedigree, major wins etc. on the reverse side of his picture, this is a good way to go, (and this could be from many stud dogs all over the world). It is much better than having, as you say, 85% of setters in the world all related, the latter is not the way to go, unfortunately it seems to be going this way. again in my humble opinion only....

[Susan Stone]

I'm giggling uncontrolledly, Dee:-))) I just love your frozen Seaman - reminds me of old Oetzi found in Austria when the glacier melted... maybe he could be used to bring in 'fresh frozen' blood for the human race...;-))

will try a serious answer when recovered...

[Dee Rance]

I am Dislexic so if it is the wrong type of 'seaman' I didn't notice sorry I rely on spell check too much and yes perhaps it is SEMEN please don't laugh too much I don't want to be responsible for anyone having a hart attack.........