CAN ANYONE HELP WITH THIS PROBLEM

[Dee Rance]

Some will already know that Saffy has had a problem.....just what it is, I don't know. and nor it seem do the vets.
She was at a 'working/training day' on the Sunday, had a good day, didn't do anything different than she would on a good day out, we came home and she ate half of her supper (she was at the time in the middle of a full blown phantom pregnancy) so she wasn't interested in food, after about an hour she started crying, and stretching, the crying got to be a real worry, so called the vet.
First question she asked was 'how long since her last season'..... answer 7-8 weeks. 'Ah its probably a Piametra, but you do know that it costs to bring a dog in at this time???
So I took her to the vet. She confirmed that she thought that it was a 'closed Piametra' she kept her in and put her on a drip with a pain killer in it.
At 11 pm I got another call saying that she thought that the Piametra was about to rupture, and that I needed to consent to a 'spay' I really didn't want to go down that road but if it meant that her life was saved then so be it. BUT if nothing was found to be wrong with the Uterus then it was to stay where it was......
She phoned at midnight and said that the operation was over and the Uterus was still where it was supposed to be, she had a wee bit of gas in her stomach. This was removed and she found that the Spleen was enlarged and was tucked behind the stomach.
The small bit of gas became a large amount of gas and a twist or partial twist when asking the next two vets that I dealt with. (?) Bloat......
Having seen many cases of Bloat I told them that I brought her in with a gut pain NOT with bloat if it had been bloat I would have been the first to say, this in my mind was definitely not bloat.
Why is it always assumed that Irish Setter + Gas = Bloat why can it not just be Gas???
But the question still arises What was it.
On the following Friday night she started shaking so she went back in for the day, they took a few ex-rays this time and it seems that none of her organs are in the correct place.
She was put on medicine for stomach ulcers and she has been progressing well on them but can anyone help as to what it may be???? At the end of the day she seems to have had an operation (with all that goes with it) for nothing!!!!!

[Susan Stone]

Hi Dee,
I just hope Saffy continues to improve and that you wont be put through all the worry again!
I'm afraid I can't help. But I am wondering about your first trip to the vet. Did they not take x-rays then and there when you came in as an emergency? I thought a pyometra would be visible on x-rays - and bloat also in most cases. Did they operate without x-raying first??? I am wondering because the second time you say 'they took x-rays this time'.

[Dee Rance]

I thought that they had operated without an ex-ray, which I thought was rather strange, but apparently they hadn't charged me for it so didn't mention it, it was very poor quality. I couldn't get over the thought that especially with an ex-ray they couldn't see that the uterus was perfectly normal, call me thick, but I always thought that Piametra was an infection, and would leave the whole organ grossly distended, especially the closed form of this problem. When I asked I was shown a very blurry plate, yes the stomach could be seen, and it was enlarged but not that much. The other plates were much better and the stomach, although not in the correct position was a normal size. Again I was told it was bloat and that it would have been a different outcome if it was left, (isn't it good and reassuring, that the vet has a crystal ball to check everything with) I haven't said that there wasn't gas in the stomach but the dog was agitated and in a bit of a state and then to be operated on, we'd get gas if in the same position but it wasn't bloat, (everyone that I have spoken to has the same story to tell, of that particular problem, and this was nothing like anything that we had ever seen before.) but thank you for your question, it only makes me think that things were not quite rite

[Henk ten Klooster]

Hopefully this helps. If not, just throw it away. At least you can see theres time spend to your questions.

Wikipedia provides this definition: "Bloat is a medical condition in which the stomach becomes overstretched by excessive gas content. It is also commonly referred to as torsion, gastric torsion, and gastric dilatation-volvulus (GDV) when the stomach is also twisted. The word bloat is often used as a general term to cover gas distension of the stomach WITH OR WITHOUT TWISTING ." (capitals in quote mine).

Your question, why gas + Irish setter is always bloat, this is probably because computers tell vets the breed is predisposed for it (Wikipedia: "The five breeds at greatest risk are Great Danes, Weimaraners, St. Bernards, Gordon Setters, and Irish Setters") So you run a risk of wrong diagnosis. For example a seizure may be caused by heartproblems, not by epilepsy.

Whatever it is, look out for being fooled by yourself. You are not objective, but hope it is not bloat because etc. This is very human. Unless you do not have a second opnion (vet) saying you are right and the vets are wrong, be prepared in case you are wrong in your diagnosis.

Last includes informing if it is still wise to do fieldtraining. Your observation "she didn't do anything different than she would on a good day out" could be wrong. Many ways of working or training do stress dogs to the ultimate and can be fatal if the dog is not fit for it. Consult your vet(s).

[Dee Rance]

Hi Henk
Thank you for the info...I started showing/breeding Irish Setters in the early 70's at that time vets thought that bloat was connected to incorrect feeding and exercise. My first bitch bloated about 9 months after giving birth, she then went on to 'blow' several times before falling pray to it at the age of 10 the same applied to her daughter. Their children also had bloat....I unfortunately have seen more bloat that a person wants to. This did not present itself in the same way...There is of cause the blanket diagnoses of Colic in horses. This actually means that the horse has a stomach ache from mild to Death.
As far as fitness is concerned, she cast a field that was probably only 6-7 acres and worked on 'finding' a Quail in a box in the middle of a field. When casting she didn't even get out of breath, she is a very fit bitch, where as some of the Gordon's visibly slowed down, and she, until recently lived in the countryside, and was used to 'working' in stubble fields, so ''she didn't do anything different than she would on a good day out'' it is because of the way she ''worked'' a field when we lived in the middle of the country that spurred me into trying her with some constructive training....that was the only difference, there was someone there to watch how she did it, she has instinctively cast a fields since she was a puppy.
Thank you so much for your interest, any other suggestions???????? I know that I sound as if I am 'better than the vet's' but in this case I think that I have seen more of that dreadful condition than the average vet, than the average dog owner. It is also the ethics of bloat....if it was bloat then I can't breed from her, (if I decide to breed after this,) if it wasn't I think then it should be OK. I just want to find out if someone comes up with the thoughts that I have about this.

[Dee Rance]

I agree with you. But it is this 'blanket' diagnoses that is so wrong, you have just said the same as me there is more than one reason for 'Gas' in the stomach, but this I couldn't get through to the vets, I didn't deny there was gas in the stomach but there was a different reason for it other than BLOAT/GDV I do hope that your dog is better now, when they are hit by car it isn't just gut trauma it is also lung trauma, they can get like a pleurisy but you were lucky to find him before the 'bloat' took its toll. I have lost a few with this dreadful condition. Thank you for the comment. I must add however that she had not external trauma. Nothing

[Henk ten Klooster]

Dee Rance wrote: "....if it was bloat then I can't breed from her, (if I decide to breed after this,) if it wasn't I think then it should be OK. I just want to find out if someone comes up with the thoughts that I have about this.

Safest for breeding is in my eyes to assume any problem to be hereditary unless proven to be caused by environment.

Thats what I did in a case with "just a little bit of gas problems". Time proved it was more than that.

So I was glad not having bred from her.

[Dee Rance]

This is my thoughts exactly, I could not forgive myself if I passed on this problem, hence this debate, I feel that it wasn't a hereditary problem, I think that it is something else, perhaps I am grasping at straws, but I will leave it a while before thinking of 'her husband' to see if the Bloat reoccurs, because if it was bloat GDV then reoccur it will, so am keeping my fingers crossed, and seeking information from people on this site, most are very knowledgeable and this has got to be good for the breeds that we represent.

[Laura Kolbach]

it did to one of my friends great dane... sewed out before...

[Dee Rance]

That's where the problem comes in, they did nothing like that, I think that this is a case of fitting the symptom to the affliction, ie there was NO GDV they opened her up for a Piametra not GDV so finding that there first choice was wrong they had to make it worth while opening her up, Irish Setters suffer with bloat, and gas was frond in her stomach so that = GDV
I am beginning to think that it was a combination of Gastritis and Colitis both at the same time, this is enough to give anyone a pain in the stomach, and a little gas.
As far as sewing the the stomach to the gut wall, they can an do get bloat again after this, and it can still kill them, it did to one of mine in the past. People do say that it is very helpful to do this sewing but after loosing one of mine with this I am not convinced....
The tablets that the vet has given her for Gastritis and Colitis seem to be working. So this makes me think that they were the cause for the pain, I do hope so....Thanks again for the info...

[Dee Rance]

Thank you for your comments, I did know what the procedure was called but can't get my tongue around it so can't spell it, the main thing is that I don't feel that it was bloat, and the vet just thought Irish Setter well they have bloat she had a stomach problem so it was bloat, as I have said I have seen too much of this condition having lost all my lines in the 80's with it.
I agree with you if people are being told that their dogs won't get bloat or wont get it again if they have Gastroplexy. Are being lulled into a false sense of security, it can and sometimes will kill dogs. It is like the idea that you feed the dog 'off' the ground, apparently you have a much higher percentage of GETTING bloat if you feed this way, but Saffy didn't have bloat, I think that I have got to the bottom of it now, I think that it was as I said a combination of Gastritis and Colitis as I said before that is enough to give anyone, or anything, a blown up stomach.... thanks again for the Good luck greatly received.....

[Dee Rance]

If you go into my pictures and see ''my first setter'' she was my foundation bitch, she had a very good 'spring' of ribs, not narrow at all, this is the main thoughts to bloat I know but there is always the exception to the rule, she probably had bloat 5 or 6 times, the last time she had her stomach stitched and because she was in kennels at the time and the owner didn't know what bloat was, when she got it again, she was tucked up in bed and consequently died.
I agree with your observations, unfortunately when someone wanted to do research, everyone disappeared, nobody wanted to help, well some did but most denied having any bloat in their lines, so nothing got done, as far a genes were concerned.
It is such a 'common' problem with this breed, and this body shape, it is dreadful that nothing more has been done to eradicate it.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Nobody can't say what genes stand behind predisposition to bloat. writes Gennadi.

Maybe, I did not check all available scientific reports. But personal observation might help. Near to all that I knew had mostly common forebearers, who had bloat themselves. This looks -but does not prove- a typical linebreeding defect. Clear was the numbers decreased in lines after outcrossing.

Depth of chest (yes Gennadi) was mentioned as a reason. Deadright - a further narrowing chest was in most of the relevant lineage visible in pictures here since the twenties.

As for the UK - one of the topbreeders over there told me that quite a few keydogs had suffered from bloat. One of them mentioned that I remember was Sh Ch Stephenshill Gamebird but not yet doublechecked. Maybe our UK friends can provide a doublecheck on that.

Other famous keydogs who bloated were mentioned in columns in Our Dogs and Dog World, from which I have clippings here starting twenties. So a very old problem, stripping quite a few factors environmental mentioned as possible reasons (like dry food etc.).

In the early days, it seems from sources available they responded to it like this: in a second or other generation as well drop the line. This is not scientific, just personal observations but whatever helps to get rid of this monster is of help thats why its typed down here.