Old map of Ireland showing "Adams and Eves" of Irish setters posted

[Henk ten Klooster]

Setterfanciers interested in history may enjoy a card of old strains of red (and white) setters in Ireland on the website www.Iersesetter.com , home of the Foundation for original setters. Click the English flag and menubar White memories of times goneby. Of - Nederlands- Vlekjes uit een Ver Verleden.

This map shows where main founders of the Irish setter in the eighteenth and nineteenth century were situated before, around or just after start of official registry, shows, field-trials. Most of them played a prominent role in the making of the Irish setter like the socalled French Park Setters of the French family De Freyne (later French). These are nowadays still in direct tail male lines of descent, most show.

The map was made by Dutchman J.A. (Jan) Hesterman probably end twenties last century or beginning thirties. Hesterman played a prominent role in Dutch setterhistory as breeder of O’Callaghans. This together with author/judge/breeder captain G.J. Verweij (Setters en Pointers, Amsterdam 1949). Both continued individually, kennelnames O’Cuchulain (Hesterman) and Of Sutherland (Verweij).

Hesterman was a keen student on early setterhistory. He was an expert on paintings, himself having restorated together with his father the Nachtwacht (Nightwatcher) of Rembrandt van Rijn. In some of his eight generations pedigrees all Irish setters got a color of their direct line of descent. He could trace them right back to the ones mentioned on this card.

The map shows that original red (and white) setters had a lot of color variations varying from shower of hails (small white dots all over the red coat), red and white to nearly complete red. This is why the map is placed on the menu White memories of Times Goneby, focusing on Harry, a red and white born from red parents and his daughter Pallas Green Harriet, the first Dutch bred setter ever to win the title of Irish Field Trial Champion for his owner/trialer Jim Sheridan (Craigrua).

Combining sources like this one makes it possible to trace a tail male main ancestor line currently topping the working scene like French (Urtis) (red) and Harry (red and white from red parents) straight back to Ch Palmerston of whom experts said the line was extinct. In case there are fanciers interested, a follow up with details can be posted.

Henk ten Klooster

[Margaret Sierakowski]

The top line of the male pedigree - the sire, grandsire, great grandsire and all the way back in that male line. As its the sire who determines the Y chromosome in male dogs, the tail male line is thought to be of some significance

[Henk ten Klooster]

Good to see question marks & answers textwise. In UK-(influenced) circles such a line when a dog has a big influence. Means inbreeding to him.

For longest part of the history of IRS -after registry began- the breed was said to "stand on three legs" (quote Rasbridge and others). These three were Ch Palmerston, Muskerry and Frisco.

We will see while extending this debate other "legs" were added during restoration of working IRS in Ireland and a rebirth of IRWS, it is Waydown Sandy, Int Ft Ch Derrycarne Red Admiral of Rye and Int FT Ch Ballymac Eagle.

Question was and is still since Gennadi's post: hybrid power or white "bubbling under" in red?

As internet pedigree bases do not provide sufficient pedigrees (you cannot trace Harriet via them 30 generations back) it might be useful to get a complete picture to post pedigrees of first fourteen keymales leading at the end to Uiscebeatha of Derrycarne from Hesterman-archives (maker of the old Ireland card).

Most subsequent gens can be chased via IRWS or IRS pedigree bases on the internet. Scanning means some work so waiting for a yes of (new) contributors or readers. So far I found only one reference to a red and white in first generations mirroring a race for all red - that was Wrestler, a legend in his days.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

"Question was and is still since Gennadi's post: hybrid power or white "bubbling under" in red?"

For Harriet, a question that will probably never get satisfactorily answered :))

[Henk ten Klooster]

Pedigrees of all red in red and white days (Ch Bob) and a red with much white (descriptions vary a lot) in red days, Wrestler.

Of Wrestler Rawdon Lee writes: "I shall never forget that big strong dog Wrestler that ran at the Irish trials in 1891. Each morning he followed, or rather preceded, the cars during the long ten miles' drive to the moors, on his way racing over the fields and enclosures and indeed, doing an ordinary's days work before his trials commenced, and when he did run his first heat he was even then too wild".

Note in red Bobs (our first champion) ancestors again red and whites, those of miss Lidwell under more.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Two reactions for Margaret Sierakowski's recent posts. One is on red and whites infused in red setters. This is what American breedhistorian W.C. Thompson writes in the New Irish Setter (1968) "even as late as 1964 in Ireland, the red and white blood was occasionnaly infused with that of the solid reds to improve style and head carriage"

As for the statement: "A question that will probably never get satisfactorily answered", I like to collect & analyse all possible sources BEFORE making statements like that. As far as I know, this has never been done this way, so give it a fair chance.....

[Henk ten Klooster]

Gennadi wrote: "This remind me the novel wrote by" etc. Well actually Irish setters and direct tail male lines in this topic play an eminent role in Russian history. Of Glencar for example, W Marr notes that although he was completely red, his offspring had often white. Check your comments on this aspect:-)

Ch Frisco was exported to Russia. As well Royal Sovereign (born 1900), number 7 in this direct tail male line under debate. About him colonel Millner writes: "...was sold to Russia, where one winter he was left in a train that was snowed up and was starved to death." He also notes: "Some excellent setters in Russia were descended from him".

[Henk ten Klooster]

A rare start for the newyear 2009, pedigrees of Ch Palmerston (1860ies and - 70ies). This for fanciers who sent a private e-mail asking to publish info on this white and red becomes red, stays red and becomes white and red story.

So start of a thirty generations tail mail line leading to winningest continental European working Irish red setter Urtis de la Chaume di Rigault and youngest red and white Ir. FT Ch Pallas Green Harriet.

As Palmerston days are in the beginning of dogsport (first show - 1859, first field trial - 1865 it is not strange to see more pedigrees given. Most historians take the Old Shot x Kate pedigree as right without explaning exactly why.

Colonel J.K. Millner, co-founder of the Irish Red Setter Club (1882) and breeder of Ch Frisco, writes in The Irish Setter (1924) "The fashion was for all reds in the middle of the last century, and the red and white has now disappeared as a showdog At that time a white blaze on the face was quite common, and in my opinion, rather handsome. It gave the dog a sporting appearance." Around publication of Millners book a red and white was winning field trials Lord Decider. So disappearing is only concerns shows, not fields.

Before Palmerston, dr Stone's Dash was winningest in shows. According to Millner, he had white on his face, neck and feet. White on the neck is not within parameters of the breed standard of the IRSC, the rest is. According to old archives here, dogs with white on back of neck were considered in Cecil Moore's days -breeder of Palmerston- as best (for working-Moore did not show).

Palmerston lived just before founding of the Irish national club. Maybe his white on red (still called Palmerston snip) influenced the color paragraph in the standard for Irish red setters where it is still allowed: chest, throat, toes, small star on forehead or narrow streak or blaze on nose. But not the neck,although founders of the IRSC and authors of the breed standard probably knew dr Stone's Dash.

Palmerston was called king of red setters, he set standards. There are details here in old archives on under more his weight, his length from tip of tail to nose etc. His head was preserved in the Waldorf Astoria hotel in New York. As far as known nobody knows where it is now.

[Dee Rance]

Was the 'Quail' mentioned 'Townsends Quail' if she is, she was put to Palmerston many times and is on the back of many pedigrees, in fact most of the setters today have them as their main ancestors nearly everything goes back to these two animals there are obviously a few others there, but we talk about in-breeding, at the beginning there was only in-breeding.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Yes pedigrees show huge inbreeding.

In working strains Knockmore Red Molly (19seventies) was estimated by O'Dwyer to have Palmerston in its lines via ONE dog (Ch Charleville Phil present 2455 times) 34.370 times. That is probably even low as compared to show strains at the time. So introduction of old red and white lines in Ireland done in the 19sixties must have meant quite some shift.

Townsends Quail is probably Quail 5162 KCSB (Rock x Flirt). Born 1872 owner Townsend. Or her daughter Quail III, breeder Townsend, owner Miss M. Bowles, St Hidier, New Jersey (Ch Palmerston x Quail 5162). Last born 1877, described as "rich red with small white spot on chest." Sister of Ch Grouse II, Hebe, Ch Ganymede & Chieftain. Quail (5162) owned by captain Trench shows no connection with Palmerston so not yet inbreeding there. Inbreeding intensified during and after Palmerstons days.

[Dee Rance]

I think that is a huge number....I thought that Grouse, (O'Callaghan's Grouse 11 was by Palmerston out of Quail she was put to Frisco on many occasions but at one of these matings produced Ossory who was the sire of Fermoy I am sure that you will put me rite if I am wrong :0)))

[Henk ten Klooster]

Yes 34.370 times Palmerston in a pedigree of a working Irish setter in the sixties seems huge. Nowadays average showsetter might have a zero extra.

As for O'Dwyers totals - it is probably made up by counting the number of times Ch Palmerston is in the pedigree of Ch Charleville Phil (born 1996). And multiplied this number with the number of times Phil was present in the pedigree of Knowckmore Red Mollie. So fourteen times.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Correction Charleville Phil born 1896. Red. Breeder captain Milner owner R. Mc Nameee, Nairn. Grandsire Wrestler (red with a lot of white).