Is the Irish setter a ruined breed?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Breeders say they are active to improve the breed. Statistics on health, scientists and independent setter-experts claim exactly the opposite. Topics on health here inspired this topic. Did breeders make a mess of the Irish setter (called a "ruined breed" by expert Florence Nagle) or not and why, when & how yes or no in your eyes?

[ursula wilby]

Ginger...this agreeing is getting out of hand! I just noticed you have agreed with something else I wrote...:-))))))
(Note excedingly friendly smiley)
I also agree !!!!! that the contact between people has become more instant (noted this in one of my earlier replies too) due to the internet etc.
This means that a lot of things will get noticed world-wide, that before were perhaps only known to a handful of people.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thanks all concerned for discussing an apparently touchy topic. In my eyes a very important one if you care for the breed. Only love and no facts certainly hurts....

If you want to continue please start a new topic and narrow it to for example bloat - how to inform puppy buyers on management and possibilities to prevend bloating. Or the Irish setter: a new poodle or still a sporting breed etc. Or more popular: character, setting a standard on this site.

My time for discussing at length has run out - its the season for working with Irish setters. So contributing regularly is over.

As for both last reactions - 2) and 5) need replies.

2) Health: what you can test improved (hd-results, PRA, Clad and MO), what you can not (yet) test is on the rise.

Ursula doubts sources and names one: insurance-companies, stating "no reliable data". This is not correct. As many sources as possible were checked. Great learning experience by the way. Pictures over a hundred years were my favorite...

Ginger asks "how do you know what cannot be tested for is on the rise, please document that". Well, for example in the 2003 Irish Setter Club of America National Health Review you can read there is a chance of one in five Irish setters to bloat during a lifetime. You cannot test for that....

Another one you cannot test for: epilepsy. On the rise in the Netherlands (99% UK-genepool). The Dutch club probably has reliable statistics, starting in the seventies a scheme of registering and publishing problems for ALL pedigreed Irish setters by interviewing owners. Epilepsy shows a rise - nine in 84 Irish setters at five years of age.

These are just a few KNOWN probably polygenetical problems - experts warn for others to dive up due to prolongated linebreeding (=inbreeding).

5) Loss of founding families is a threat - rise of polygenetical diseases is expected.

Ginger wants an explanation for the correlation. In a nutshell: loss of families means further narrowing bloodlines, higher risks of unknown problems to dive up.

What of course feels a lot better reading that review (link provided before): breeds character was described by many owners as "happy". And that seems a big difference with other breeds!!! Happy about that, Henk.

[ursula wilby]

First of all I hope you have a great hunting-season Henk!

BUT (there had to be a BUT...) I still do not understand your figures as to illnesses or defects being on the rise. You do not convince me as to the data refering to "the old times".
You are talking about 9 of 84 setters having epileptic fits. I presume you are talking about NOW. But where are the figures relating to the 70´s?
As many sources as possible were checked. Great learning experience by the way. Pictures over a hundred years were my favorite...is what you write, and once again I think that unless these figures are from a freestanding source,(for instance insurance-company) you may not find them all that relieable.

Or am I so totally wrong?

Ursula

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thanks for your hunting-season wishes, Ursula.

Yes you are right that reliable sources is a problem as far as breed specific. Luckily not my problem - I have clippings here from dogmags starting twenties last century. Its an eyeopener to see that without critical fans like Rasbridge the Irish setter might now be extinct in the UK.... So the breed needs critical observers....

Relative reliable is the national health review ISCA, online, the link was provided before.

Reasonable reliable is the system of the Dutch IS-club and as far as I know in that alas quite unique in the setterworld. As said before it tries to interview ALL owners since beginning of the seventies, now three times in their lives. Those data are not online, but published in mags and jubileebooks.

Data from that you can use for the question did we improve or not since the seventies when they started interviewing. In the beginning there were a lot of commercial breeders active in IS and the breed had record numbers. So you may think, these commercial breeders are gone, more "serious" breeders in, better techniques, more vets so problems might dive down. NO!

New problems dived up, like clad and mo - both due to prolongated linebreeding.

You ask how can you be so sure this wasn't the case long before? Not 100% of course. But there are those clippings and some writers do name problems also yet unnamed when it dives up, like Rasbridge. Plus - more times the genetical source of those defects was after pedigree-research named, providing a clear date for start of the problem. The PRA-scene learns us theres just a few keydogs needed and prolongated linebreeding to endanger the future of a whole breed!!!

You ask for those epilepsy numbers - 9 in 84 (five years old) interviewed last year is a far higher percentage than in most other statistics I scanned. These inquiries are great for trying to prevend an explosion - (there was one in the sixties) thats why the club is probably now publishing those geneticists on disadvantages of prolongated linebreeding and launching a system as to provide breeders an inbreeding-coefficient OVER TEN GENERATIONS.

Nowadays breeders (time lacking????) have contrary to the breeders I knew in my youth no idea what happened 6-10 generations ago. Topbreeeders in my youth knew exactly the percentage of inbreeding and -what founding families and how often in a pedigree of OVER TWENTY GENERATIONS.

As for very, reasonable, not so, or not reliable sources. It would be far better to have independent scientists working on health reviews without interference whatsoever of breedclubs who tend to censor or make it a little bit better looking. Many clubmags say something like contents may not be against the intrest of the breed.... Tricky stuff!!!!!

You ask if you are so totally wrong. Well you can judge that for yourself after reading this. Who does not make faults? Don't ask me sources for this statement:-)))) Maybe those experts warning us are wrong. Could be. Looks like that, reading reactions...Anyway you've seen how I tried to get a picture of the truth. Wrong or right, certainly with best intentions...

[ursula wilby]

Yes Henk I can see that you have been trying very hard to get all the facts together.
The problem is that for instance a figure of 9 in 84 dogs actually means nothing unless compared to several other years.
Also epileptic fits are difficult.
First of all as there are so very many reasons, certainly not all hereditory. In fact not even the vets can tell for certain what the epilepsy they are looking at stems from.
I have had the odd dog here and there with epileptic fits, and it is so bad as its not testable, but also coursed by so many different factors.
I have also heard of litters were 8 out of 10 puppies have had epilepsy. In that case you HAVE to assume that this type is heredotory. (Would be great if I could spell that ...:-)
But lets assume that one of those litters got in amongst the 84 dogs the statistics are based on...
what you then end up with is a totally false impression.
I am not saying this is the case, I am just noting this COULD be the case with so few dogs involved.
As for inbreeding, unless I am very much mistaken, was quite frequently used in the "old times".
Right then, having said that...Ill let you go hunting now!
Ursula

[Susan Stone]

Hi Henk,
I must agree that the dutch irish setter club has a unique system for reviewing health questions in the breed. The only thing similar I know of in Britain is the Irish Red & White Setters who have an excellent programme for keeping an eye on health problems. If Pat Brigden reads this, maybe she could explain it to us in more detail.

I saw the dutch statistics for epilepsy and I feel it is indeed a warning signal. Irish Setters do have a higher incidence of epilepsy than other breeds / crossbreeds. This for me is proof of the heritability of certain types of epilepsy. Ursula is right that not all epilepsy is due to heredity, but knowing what we do about the predisposition in the breed, we should be very vigilant when cases of idiopathic epilepsy in dogs under 5 years of age are diagnosed.

What i can not believe is that the breed was healthier in bygone years... as Ursula says, we don't have definite statistics. Mr. Rasbridge kept detailed notes on PRA, that is indisputable. But other statements of the breed having been healthier are only founded on the view of individuals without the data relevant for statistics.
How many 'famous' dogs do we read about in the old books on the breed who 'sadly died young' - with no details given? Some died of bloat, others had fits, some died in accidents - we just don't know. In the past if a dog had 'fits' it was assumed to be due to distemper, poison or some disease. The general public would not hear of these cases unless it happened to affect a famous stud dog...and even then, the cause of death was kept quiet.

I remember a breeder once saying to me some years ago: "Oh, no, the dog did not have fits, it had something the vet called 'idiopathic epilepsy'... so no need to worry!"
I'd say today's breeders are better informed - hopefully!

[Ann Millington]

I just need to clear a point here - I do keep the health records of all the IRWS registered in the UK and many overseas IRWS too - but I don't keep a record of Irish Setters (Too many!!! Too late!!!) I do however maintain a link with Irish Setters in the UK and am familiar, to some extent with the Irish Setter Scene.

It is so much easier with IRWS as we started with the 6 original imports and included every dog thereafter. Irish Setters? Phew! Already thousands and thousands and a lot of people with their heads in the sand! I know that the Irish Setter breed clubs are working hard to monitor health problems and effect some control - it is hard going tho'.
Cheers
Ann

[Henk ten Klooster]

With interest I've read both last posts and analysed differences. This was not on epilepsy only. Many experts on many terrains hold the average breeding-system responsible for known problems and those still unknown or unnamed to dive up.

This is also the case for canine gastric dilatation-volvulus (bloat). Research shows that the average inbreeding-coefficient is higher in affected dogs than in those without bloat. Also more height & weight plus deep chests play a role. The average show winning Irish setter has compared to times goneby more height & weight plus -this is based on quick scans of pictures- a deeper chest.

Theres a huge gradation on inbreeding, that's why experts probably use an inbreeding-coefficient. In the past the inbreeding-coeefficient was far lower than nowadays. For Irish setters being one of the first breeds to be registered and a standard so with a longer history of inbreeding than other breeds, time-effects are big. Thats why a dive back into times of founding families can provide info on under more: 1) where to trace Irish setters where otherwise near to extinct families under more due to showtrends can be found; 2) a more precise inbreeding-coefficient over more generations.

Heres quoting on that system of inbreeding the Kennel Club from the internet, must be a reliable source for purebred Irish setter-fans. "Inbreeding therefore does not cause a mutation that results in an inherited disease, but once such a mutation has occurred, inbreeding will increase the frequency of the mutant version of the gene in the breed far quicker than other more random breeding programmes."

In our breed we do'nt talk only about a proven risk for selection because of the breeding-system, but also one that contrary to the recent past is ON LOOKS ONLY.

Where are the Emily Schweitzers (USA) and Florence Nagles (UK) breeding for that AND a lot more now???? What would they analyse while reading in the Washington Post July 15, 1994: "It would be nice to breed for beauty and brains, but history and genetics teach that the confluence of the two is as rare in dogs as it is in humans. Inbreeding in the pursuit of man-made standards of beauty has reduced other breeds to ruin." And veterinarian Michael W. Fox stating: "As for the AKC's Irish setters, they're so dumb they get lost on the end of their leash."

Henk.

[ursula wilby]

Hello once again Henk (I thought you where out hunting...)
Just a few lines.

The reason I specifically picked on epilepsy was:
1. I have come across it.
2. I have discussed this with vets.
3. This was the only defect/illness/etc where a figure was quoted.

Bloat I have never come across in Irish setters, but several cases in Bloodhound, Rottweilers, etc.

As for quoting Michael W.Fox (I have no clue as to who he is) I have also read a report stating that the Irish setter was considered to be the dumbest breed of dogs in the world. This (according to the report) was the oppinion of their owners.
The reason was NOT that they got lost on their lead...but rather that when you let then OFF the lead, they would run aimlessly, totally out off controll.
Now that was a survey.
Shall we believe that one as well?
Michael W. Fow may be the greatest person on earth...but at least THAT statement makes me wonder how qualified he is in the matter of judging ANY breeds intelligence.
Some things have to be taken with a HUGE pinch of salt!
Ursula
(trainer of the dumbest...)

[Laura Kolbach]

maybe dumb owners who can't controll their most intelligent dogs... no idea how to handle them.... you can see that in many breeds...

[Ann Millington]

Just negotiating this site, Ginger;o))
Can I respectfully remind you all that Florence Nagle, Bill Rastbridge et al were lamenting the 'ruin' of the breed some 50 or 60 and more years ago! Things were different in their day to what they had seen before and consider the length of time that as passed since then!
I do not think the breed has been ruined - I think there have been improvements in peoples' knowledge about the breed, great advances in genetic knowledge and veterinary practice available - to everyone.
Better and more reporting of health issues produces the headlines and this gets the media coverage - healthy dogs are not newsworthy!
Is everything wonderful with Irish Setters? No! There are issues that have to be addressed - attention must be paid to hereditary disease and its avoidance,. Popular Sire Syndrome is a big issue too and my pet hate - the extraordinary pose that some exhibitors think stylish but which look not only unnatural, but painful for the dog! This great extension of the hind quarters does not present the balanced dog, the standards ask for.
And .... Hi Henk..;o)) I'd rather see an Irish with much less feathering because it has been left in the field while out hunting than the perfect, stiff coiffeur......
Lastly 'ruin' recedes when concerned people share their concerns on the internet like this, so let's keep it up!.

Ann

[ursula wilby]

If the Irish setter is ruined, so are just about all other breeds of dogs.

Also family-life is not what it used to be, and neither are the classic cars like in the old days...you know, when you could still tell the differance between the makes at a distance.
Everything changes, including our breeds of dogs. A pug today looks nothing like the ones that Queen Victoria used to keep, and the pork-pies dont taste as they did when I was young. A German Shephard now is not like a German Shephard then.
We may all secretly want to go back to the "good old days" but we can not turn the clock back.
And we should be grateful for that!
I think we would all get a nasty chock if we did...

Ursula