Quel avenir pour le setter irlandais en France ?

[Monique VIRY]

Nouvelles directives de jugement données par le Red Club en France.
Lors de l'assemblée générale du Red Club, le 28 juillet 2007, le comité nous a indiqué les nouvelles directives de jugement :
Taille idéale pour obtenir le CACS : 56 à 60 cm pour les femelles et 59 à 64 cm pour les mâles.
Ces tailles ont été fixées car, d'après le comité, les grands chiens ne savent pas chasser.
Pour obtenir le CAC en exposition il faut avoir 7 caractères jugés excellents ( tête, avant main, corps, arrière main, ensemble, robe et démarche ) et un chien dans la taille idéale.
Ceci nous a été indiqué le samedi avec application à partir du lendemain lors de la Nationale d'Elevage.
Que pouvons nous faire, quel est l'avenir du setter irlandais en France ?
Je remercie Susan qui s'est proposée pour la traduction.

[Jacques MATHIEU]

Henk,

En effet, je ne suis pas très intelligent puisque je réponds à nouveau.

1/ Les propos de Monique Viry quant aux tailles ne sont pas une invention. Elle vous les confirme en vous indiquant la source. Je vous les confirme moi-même avec le status qui est le mien.

2/ Ma question n'est pas celle que vous interprétez en raccourci , j'ai dit : est-ce que les juges (quelque soit leurs nationalité) sont tenus de suivre les directives de tailles du Red Club, en France, pour une expo Internationale ou nationale.
Je n'attends pas, nous n'attendons pas, le sentiment de chacun de ce forum. Ce que nous souhaiterions (c'est ce que je souhaite, moi) c'est que vous essayez de nous apporter le témoignage de juges FCI pour nous dire ce qu'ils pensent qui est règlementaire de faire au niveau d'un juge et au niveau des exposants.

Merci à Susan pour les traductions

Oui Carmel, comme tout le monde, le Red Club doit suivre les tailles du Standard FCI . Pourquoi vouloir s'en écarter ?
Et nous, nous devons faire la même chose. Un chien de 56 cm (femelle) n'est pas un nain. Un chien mâles de 67 cm n'est pas un géant. Les deux sont des Setters Irlandais parfaitement dans le Standard pour ce qui est de la taille.

Jacques

[Susan Stone]

translation Jacques
***
Henk,
true, I am not being very intelligent as I am replying once again...

1/ the points Monique Viry mentions are no invention. She confirms them and gives you the source. I confirm them myself within my own right and status.

2/ my question is not as you interpret it. To put it short, I said: Are judges (of any nationality) liable to follow the directives concerning size as issued by the Red Club when judging at a national or intenrnational show in France?
I do not expect - we do not expect - an opinion from everyone on this forum. What we wish for (or rather what I wish for) is that you would try to give us the views of FCI judges and tell us what would be the correct procedure. *
*(Translater - Sorry. I'm uncertain re translation of french: 'ce qu'ils pensent qui est règlementaire de faire au niveau...')

Yes, Carmel, the Red Club must adhere to the size limit according to the FCI standard just like everybody else. Why stand apart?
And we should do the same. A dog of 56 cm (female) is no dwarf. A male measuring 67 cm is no giant. Both are Irish Setters confirming perfectly to the standard when it comes to size.

[Katariina Roiha]

Jacques says it all in his last sentence:

A dog of 56 cm (female) is no dwarf. A male measuring 67 cm is no giant. Both are Irish Setters confirming perfectly to the standard when it comes to size.

Thank you Jacques, you could not have said it better!

[Susan Stone]

Jacques,

There are long standing judges on this list who are better qualified than I to give an opinion. I have been approved as FCI judge (international) for a couple of years.
However, the rules are the same for all judges officiating in FCI countries: the judge must follow the standard as set out by the FCI.

If asked to follow any special breed club directives, I would be forced to refuse an invitation to judge.

[Carmel Murphy]

Yes Jacques! That is so true!

[Vanessa Woodward]

Thank you Jaques.

I have just struggled to reply to you in French but when I tried to go online what I had written disappeared from the screen. As both my computer and I write very bad French this is perhaps just as well. Please Susan would you translate.

In an earlier contribution to this Forum I made a similar statement to your own. We must not digress from the original subject. Today I think Susan has already given us the answer we are seeking i.e. FCI appointed Judges must adhere to the FCI standards. But where do we go from here? Do we write to the Judges' Committee, to the FCI and/or to the Red Club?

I am totally in agreement with you. We all love our dogs whether they are big, small, thin or fat, (I hope not too fat) and would not be taking part in this Forum were this not the case. We may have different ideas as to what an Irish Setter should look like and for this reason, there must be a standard. Probably the most important aspect of the dog is that it is healthy and well balanced but I do not profess to be an expert. I do however feel that a situation where breed clubs, societies and associations can change things without reference to the ruling body to which the country is supposed to adhere. is very undesirable.

Can you Jaques, or anybody, suggest our course of action.

Vanessa

[Katariina Roiha]

I have to come here in between the translated text to add some what I have been trying to say earlier.
First I agree with you and i don´t think that what you said Frances, is in anyones interest to deny. I know at lot of you think that "we-the hunters" do not care what the setter we hunt with, looks like. You´re wrong in that matter, we do but the outlook of a dog never comes first when breeding, other things matter more. I am for instance very proud that from my litter came goodlooking dogs to crown it all. But on the other hand I am prepared to do risky breeding plans when it comes to the outook of the dog if I want to get some certain quality in my stock ;)
I can always get the beautiful outlook easily better , qualities, some specific skill is harder to breed.

2.What comes to the size, I agree with you Frances when it comes and considers bitches BUT the problem of too big a size comes in hand when we speek about the male dogs. A bitch can carry on days, weeks ,months easily even if she is the bigger size but a male can not. This is just a fysiological fact. And the males in showdogs have gone way over the limit of the standard in some cases. And those dogs can never , I am brave enough to say never, maintain the stamina and endurance needed in hunting.
As I explained before, the temperature within the muscle raises dangerously high when a maledog runs. The body can not remove all the heat like humans do when sweating, the male dog needs gallons and gallons of water to cool down the bodyheat. The kidneys start suffering from dehydration and the end of the dog can be a catastrophy. When a dog has the right qualities for a racy drive to get to the birds he also has no limit of anykind to stop before it is too late, because he is an animal with a drive given to him from above ;-))
Only in northern parts of the world this kind of a giant could survive without dying from heat in the winter but then comes ahead the pure fact that the snow covering allover, with 1-2m deep of snow, the dog just can´t go because he is so heavy that he will stop running because of the deep snow.

3. Comes the fact that the game hears too heavy runners. That is a fact when you hunt on natural living birds. When size goes up, the weight goes up naturally. In the woods, it sounds like a moose coming when a big male gets nearer, don´t laugh but that is true. In the high mountain, where we live, the surface is so hard that a big male will suffer from paw problems, sporting accidents, muscle damages, among other things.
I have seen this all, for my dear friend has a male(Finnish Show Champion by the way) 67cm of height, from pure hunting lines, A/A hips and clear elbows. The dog is good in fieldwork but not in the woods or the mountain. And an irish setter is made/bred to manage all 3 terrains.
This dog of my friends tears himself apart when he is here in the mountain area and he always suffers from somekind on accident.

the examples at the top are very much to be considered when judges are judging the size of a setter. Those are both fysiological and practical reasons to maintain the size in reasonable limits.

[Susan Stone]

Vanessa, I'm hoping there will be no need to translate your text into french - the other way round is easier for me (I'm only bi-lingual english-german, not tri...).
I think most of our 'Frenchies' can manage to read and understand the main thread even in english. But for the non-french it is a lot more difficult to follow a french discussion, which is were I try my best...:-)

May I suggest you write a letter to the SCC (French kennel club) with maybe a copy to the committee of the Red Club and a copy to the FCI? The SCC is the governing body. Although maybe this is not even necessary if the Red Club would withdraw the new directives. After all, no judge should be willing to put them in force...
Si je peux fair une suggestion, ce serait d'écrire une lettre à la SCC et adresser un copie au comité du Red Club et une copie à la FCI. La SCC est la société gouvernante de la France.
Mais ceci ne sera peut-être même pas nécéssaire si le Red Club retire ses nouveaux directives, étant donné que aucun juge ne pourrait les suivre...

[Vanessa Woodward]

Hello again Susan.

This is probably the answer. Those of us in France have to decide whether to make a joint approach (petition) or to send individual letters. I believe an official approach to the FCI involves a fairly hefty fee, (unless I misunderstood something) in which case a joint approach might be more practical. Anything to the SCC should be in French - it's a little unfair to expect them to bother too much with a letter in English.

Vanessa

[Sian Thomas]

I have already mailed Monique and Cécilia about this and they are looking to put a letter together that we can support. I believe there will be other owners in France who will support this approach so perhaps we can put together a longer list of potential signatories.

Siân

[Carmel Murphy]

Good luck to all the French owners! I wish you success in your letter to the SCC!!!

[Alenka Pokorn]

I think this is a good idea. Since I have an invitation to judge in France in February (Chalon en Champagne) I am very interested to hear about the results (if any) coming from this letter. Anyway I was not yet given the breeds that I will be judging (I judge FCI VII, VIII and IX), but I was led to believe Irish Setters will be one of the breeds. So when all this started I seeked advice of our Kennel Club and they told me that if I recieve any written "instructions" from France I should immediately report this to the FCI. As an FCI judge I MUST judge according to the FCI valid standard!!!

Alenka