Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[Margaret Sierakowski]

"Is it because there are fewer birds or because the dogs are required to find them at speed. Margaret says that "if it can't cover the ground it isn't going to find the birds". Is it possible that if it covers the ground too fast it could miss many birds which maybe a slower, more thorough dog could find."

There really are fewer grouse than there were 50 years ago. If the dog only has 15 -20 minutes to run, it has got to cover a lot of ground to get a find
Yes, the fast dogs can sometimes miss a bird, but the slow dog that doesnt cover the ground has only got half as much chance of finding a bird, however good its nose and bird handling abilities are.
Some of the slow Gordons are well trained and handle birds well,but are handicapped by their lack of speed. In Ireland a slow dog hasnt got a chance of finding a bird
But they can make very nice dogs to shoot over, if you have all day to walk
I have a rather overweight IRWS bitch who is like that, excruciatingly slow and close working, but very good nose, never misses a bird (if there are any) , rock steady on point and very obedient
But it would be a complete waste of time entering her in a field trial, they would laugh at her :))

[Henk ten Klooster]

The winningest continental European working IRS differ in height and type. Compare Urtis de la Chaume di Rigaut (bottom left under) with Apache des Sorcieres du Sancy (above left).

Videos of EC's made last years by the Italian Red Setter Club, enable you to compare their movement. In both cases ideal in my eyes. The Red Club France organizes special events for Style winners, in runs the style of galop is judged, Apache was a winner of a Style price!

Another -documented- example is Int FTCH Ballymac Eagle (estimated height by French conformation expert dr Jean Hostin in the sixties: 65 cms and described as a large dog"). John Nash (Moanruad) describes his debut with: He literally shot away as from a cannon

[Henk ten Klooster]

Changes result in my eyes above all from selection. Inbreeding is done in most cultures but results differ, from oversized to undersized.

So you can lose movement if a selection scheme is wrong. That is likely to happen when showjudges don't know anything about movement at work.

You can make IS bigger or smaller. Facts document that making an Irish setter bigger did indeed happen. Check USA standards of 1886, 1895, 1908, 1919, 1960 and 1990. The reverse is not documented and all ftch in Ireland need a showjudgement to gain their title.

[eva ciechonska]

Margaret, you make an interesting point about your IRWS bitch who is excrutiatingly slow and close working but has a very good nose and never misses a bird, rock steady on point.........does this not give you pleasure watching her every move at close quarters working the ground rather than have her speeding off at 100 miles an hour and you needing a pair of binoculars to see what she was doing.....AND her having to have her tail bolt upright so you could see where she was. 50 years ago, field trialing was a leisurely affair and your girl would have been appreciated.........I think it such a shame that she would be laughed at in a modern field trial......after all she is a working gundog.
Iar the narrowing of the gene pool in Irish field setters must have an effect on size. If dogs are bred selectively for specific characteristics whether it be for field or show, it will eventually be detrimental to the health and the type and conformation of the breed.

[Ossian]

The Gordons you see "lolloping" around at FT are often not really the "working" dogs. they are more likely to be the "weekend triallers". The Gordon should plough through not over ground and in many cases they are not being trained on heavy heather and dont really know how to cope with it.

I am happy to go with "evolution". Dogs may have to cover a lot more ground and the ground may be different to the thickly covered wild moor of past days so it is reasonable to presume that some change may be required.

However those changes need not be the extremes we see. There are lots of dogs that dont follow the small. light and fast pattern. Margaret's own D. Lord Decider was a top sized IRWS but a fast dog. Penny Darragh's Zettersjarn Emil isnt a small dog and he is successful in the field.

The baby and the bath water dont both need to go!

I want to say look at competition obedience. Thirty years ago the main breeds were GSD and Goldies. Then one or two competitors realised that Border Collies were really easy to train and would repeat and repeat a behaviour for hours. Co incindentally handlers realised that the heelwork these dogs achieved was far tighter that the bigger dogs. It looked really neat and stylish and "FAST"

Inside five years most handlers had given up the fight and started to compete with the collies - they said it was the only way they could stay in the game.
Now......... The rule book has been re written in Ch OB and it is written around collies/collie types. Larger dogs will automatically lose marks in turns and finish because the body of the dog is bigger.

So as somone else pointed out has the dog evolved to suit the conditions or has it changed in order to eliminate the competition.

I hear several times that the dog was "really fast over the ground" but " he didnt find anything" I could put one of my methodical Gordons out over the ground and I know that she would find birds.

So it could be training, it could be fashon, it could even be quick fix. I am interested to know

[eva ciechonska]

My god the comments run thick n fast on this Forum....!!!!!!! I take up your point Ossian and want to ask why do the dogs have to run "really fast over the ground" and why do they have to have ony "15-20 minutes" to find a bird (Margaret's words). I bet they had more than 15-20 minutes 50 years ago.
Henk please don't keep bashing the show judges every time you mention movement. Many working setters move wide in front with their elbows out and that ain't pretty either.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

"why do they have to have ony "15-20 minutes" to find a bird (Margaret's words). I bet they had more than 15-20 minutes 50 years ago."

Because there can be up to a max of 45 dogs entered in a field trial, typically 35 to 40. Running two at a time for 15-20 minutes per brace could take up to seven hours, then there is the second round , and time for the judges to confer between braces and between rounds, and a lunch break

I believe they used to run the dogs for longer in the very early field trials, but if you read the reports of nineteenth century trials in the early KC stud books, you will find they had quite small entries, often less than ten dogs

[Ossian]

You need to ask Margaret the ins and outs of the trial requirements.

I agree with you too about her "slow" bitch. That bitch is behind Ir Ch D Garryowen and Ir Ch D Infamous Grouse. I think she is a real shooting dog. she will turn up birds for the pot and go all day! She has also passed on a strong working instinct to her offspring. I wouldnt laugh too loudly at her!

[terry o leary]

Hello Eva The working standard states that the IRWS should run fast and wide which is the correct working style for an IRWS.This has not caused a split in the breed here in Ireland.If you look at the pedigree of International Show Champion Princess Sophie you will see she is a litter sister to FT CH Silent Seeker of Shannonvalley the top winning dog in Pointer & Setter field trails held here in Ireland in 2009.This did not happen by accident but indicates the thought and dedication that Irish breeders invested in the breed.Marrgaret can also tell you about dogs such as Int Show Champion Dalriach Garryowen who won a FT here in Ireland last year.You ask why do they only have "15-20 minutes" to find a bird well if you think its thirty dogs run in the first round.Thats twenty minutes by thirty if the dog is good enough to be given twenty minutes or if it has a find.Then of course their is a second round with the remaining dogs so you can understand we have to finsh before it get dark.As I am both an A Judge for Pointers & Setters FT and a Gundog Group Judge for shows I feel I can ask you how much time does a dog get before the Judge before it gets best dog or best of breed in the show ring.In regards to 50 years ago at FT here in Ireland we did not have the same amount of dogs entered in FT so the dogs may have been given more time.I am not trying to get at you but just trying to explain the situation as it exists today. Terry

[eva ciechonska]

You are right Margaret......please tell us about the entries in the field trials of 50 years ago?
Your bitch sounds wonderful Margaret, not only is she an fine worker, she is an ace producer......priceless I would say

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Well, she would never set the heather on fire :)) A couple of years ago, she had some pleasant days out with a friend who was terminally ill with a brain tumour, but wanted to enjoy his last shooting season in Scotland before he died. He was walking slowly supported with ski poles, and Bruar was the perfect dog for him, very slow and methodical, never too far out in front,and always very obedient
And yes, mated to male dogs who are faster than she is, she has produced some offspring like Dalriach Garryowen and Dalriach Grainne who are also a lot faster than she is

But I have to admit, I get a bigger kick out of seeing a really fast setter flowing across a Scottish hillside at 90mph.
Kestrel of Cherryfield at top speed powering along a heather hillside was something to behold, even when he was completely out of control (which he often was) he was still breathtaking to watch
I think Henk mentioned Ballymac Eagle, another explosive running dog whom nobody could get under control until he was more than five years old and had changed hands at least twice, and he then became one of the great FT dogs (and in the IRWS pedigrees too)

[Margaret Sierakowski]

By chance I was talking toJohn Kerr earlier today.John had Ballymac Eagle towards the end of his life, and when the dog died,John carried him to the top of a hill in County Tyrone where he buried him. John said that Ballymac Eagle was the greatest dog he had known