Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[Margaret Sierakowski]

The IKC didnt publish registrations until quite recently, then they started to publish something like our BRS, but said that they couldnt cover the costs with the small number being sold, and I think it may have stopped ? I would be interested to hear if anybody in Ireland knows?

The setters that turn up as rescues from Ireland are usually anonymous dogs from the punds, no names, no papers, many of them probably unregistered. If they are registered and microchipped , they only have ten days in the pound before they are put down or shipped out by rescue groups to the UK. Not long enough to track down and contact the breeder

The better breeders , who produce most of the FT dogs, are not exactly enthusiastic about taking back a dog that has been dumped because it is a failed and unwanted working dog, that nobody is likely to want as a pet either. What are they going to do with it?

It is easy,from the comfortable world of pet and show dogs, well behaved, well socialised and housetrained, to pass judgement
Harder to understand the world that these dogs come from and the problems of finding pet homes for failed working setters in Ireland. Where working setters live outdoors in kennels and are not thought of as suitable pet dogs
And avoid exaggerating the numbers, there are IRWS people that talk as if there was a constant stream of unwanted working IRWS,all in deplorable condition, coming from Ireland to be rehomed. The numbers are actually very small,maybe a couple of dogs per year
I get so fed up with the recrimations between the IRWS breed clubs in the UK and Ireland over the rescue dogs, and the lack of mutual understanding, that if I get to hear of one that has turned up in Ireland, I try to deal with it myself rather than going through IRWS rescue

[eva ciechonska]

Margaret, firstly congratulations on the 400th comment!!!!!!!
Secondly, "it is easy, from the comfortable world of pet and show dogs, well behaved, well socialised and housetrained, to pass judgement" That is no excuse. The comfortable world of pet and show dogs exists because we take the effort to make it so. Very often when a pet setter comes back to it's breeder, even though he has been socialised, he could have become totally out of control and all the careful work that was initially undertaken has to be done all over again before the dog can be offered to another home. It IS an effort and we all curse, but we still do it. You say that even "the better breeders who breed most of the FT dogs are not exactly enthusiastic about taking back a dog that has been dumped because it is a failed and unwanted working dog that nobody is going to want as a pet either. What are they going to do with it?" What they could do with it is to put in the time of socialising the litter in the first place and then undertaking the (probably) impossible task of acclimatising the dog into becoming a pet when it comes back, or, I suppose the easy way out of putting it down. Dumping the dog as someone else's problem is unquestionably irresponsible.
"Harder to understand the world that these dogs come from...........where working dogs live in kennels and are not thought of as suitable pet dogs." There are many show dogs who live in kennels and their progeny are sold to pet homes without these kind of temperament issues.
I am sorry,but I reiterate........what a sad indictement of the working gundog world..........and I thought racing greyhounds were bad.....

[kristi schrittwieser]

Hi Jennifer,
In the US there are still setters up for adoption. Most of them are puppy mill bench dogs or well bred show dogs. We have a large problem with puppy mills in the US.
I have only seen one group of field dogs that were raised in poor conditions, unsocialized etc, turned into rescue. The NRSFTC tries to track down people who cross breed their dogs with show dogs. They are quite harsh on any hunter that sells their dogs to non hunters. They are a small enthusiastic group. The red setter is still considered a minority field dog in the US. They are not as popular as the other breeds. Hunters have spent years trying to bring the breed back from near extinction in the US. They have a long way to go. I did see a beautiful field dog turned into a setter rescue about three months ago. The hunter lost his house and was unable to keep the dog. I believe he went to a hunting home.

[eva ciechonska]

Kirsti, what is a puppy mill BENCH dog? I would be surprised if a show dog made it into a rescue centre. If they fail as a show dog they are normally re-homed into a pet home, at least that's what happens in the UK. Would you mean a pet dog that was bred out of a show litter? That would be more likely.

Just to get the comments back on track, how were working dogs bred and kept 50 years ago? Was there a similar situation as Margaret describes?

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Eva , You need to understanding that the setters being bred in Ireland are very different from what is bred in the UK.
In the UK probably 99% of the Irish Setters being bred are for show and pet, not for working
Have a look at this website , one of the most popular in Ireland for advertising dogs for sale

http://www.donedeal.ie/find/dogs/for-sale/Ireland/Setter

As you can see , at least 90% of the setters and setter crosses advertised are for working. And almost all of these will be kennel dogs. Setters are a hunting dog in Ireland , not thought of pets who live in the house.
If breeders of working setters were to take their failed dogs back, it wouldnt matter how much socialising they did with them, they still wont find pet homes in Ireland
Thats why people like Dorothy Park and others like Trudy who work so hard to rescue setters from the dog pounds, have to get them shipped over to the UK.

I'm not apologising for working gundog breeders or justifying what they do, I'm just trying to explain how it is
I really dont know what ones does with a failed or unwanted gundog that has lived in a kennel all its life, it wont get another home as a working gundog, and they dont make very satisfactory pets in many cases. Maybe it is kinder to put them down
I took on a young IRWS bitch from working breeding about three years ago who wasnt housetrained, and intended to get her clean and better socialised and then move her on. Three years later she is still here, efforts to get her house trained havent worked too well, she still pees and craps in the house and in the crate where she sleeps at night. Very few people would want her as a pet living indoors with her insanitary habits so she is still here. Sweet natured and affectionate , high energy and slightly crazy but ...............

[eva ciechonska]

You paint a very sad picture Margaret. Thank god for people like Trudy and Dorothy. I do appreciate that it is difficult. I am not involved in the working side of the IS and appreciate that my comments come from the heart and not from experience and that it is easy to propose but much harder to implement.

Is it not be possible for the Irish FT dog breeders to change their breeding and rearing ethic or am I, once again, shooting for the moon?

Thank god that IS have slumped in popularity since the 70' and 80's and the rescue societies aren't as overworked as they used to be. A combination of dropped registrations and many breeders re-homing dogs privately means that often there is a waiting list for older dogs.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Hi Jennifer,
A puppy mill is a facility that mass produces dogs. In the great depression farmers were very poor in the US, they needed a way to bring in income. They started to breed dogs. The dogs were referred to as breeding stock. As the US came out of the depression the breeding continued in the rural areas of the country. There are now thousands of puppy mills in the US. One state alone can have over 2000 mills. They are usually in deplorable conditions and it is not unheard of for one mill to have over 100 breeding females. The females really have a very difficult life. They are kept in cages and have puppies until their breed is no longer popular or they are no longer able to breed. Some breed for life or are sold off at auctions only to end up in another mill to continue the breeding cycle. This is all legal in the US. The ex show or champion IS's are often sold off at auctions. Due to the champion lineage the dogs become more valuable. When they are bred the mill owner registers the litter with AKC and the AKC makes a profit. Then the people who buy the puppies register with AKC and they make more of a profit. Most people in the US have no idea that AKC is hooked up with the mills. AKC made 4 million dollars alone last year off of puppy mill registations. Puppy mills are a large cash flow for the AKC. Humane societies and rescue groups are trying to get laws past to stop the massive breeding but it is not looking very good.
When IS's became popular in 70's they were all bench dogs. Many ended up in the pounds, puppy mills and in rescue groups.They had become over sized, aggressive, hyper, and known as dumb as a door knob. This was a shame. Often people who bought them did not understand the breed. They were angry about the hunting, jumping, fences and bolting out the front door whenever possible. Could you blame them, lol. If I was an IS I would have done the same thing. Locked up in a suburban home and asked to give the paw and roll over is not the job of an IS.
50 years ago there were not many IS's on the field in the US. They had an awful reputation and couldn't stand a chance against the pointers and white dogs in the field. The show people took over and won the IS. That is when the out crossing started. A group of IS enthusiasts refused to lose the IS. The NRSFTC was formed and five generations later the dog was starting to become respected on the field. There are very few field dogs in rescue or in the mills. The NRSFTC really comes down on breeders who sell to non hunters. The field IS is still a minority breed in this country. As for kenneling I am sure 50 years ago the few field dogs left in the country were kenneled I am not positive. Today it is considered inhume to kennel field dogs. They are first and formost hunting dogs but also house pets. My experience was if my dog got the exersise a field dog needs she was great and calm in the house. Even as a puppy. Hunters in the US determine a field trial dog within 3 months. If they don't think they can cut it they are sold to a hunter. Meaning someone that doesn't want a dog with that much of a range but can find birds. If the dog doesn't hunt or is gun shy it is sold as a pet. Very few field dogs are in rescue. There are mostly bench dogs. You are right Jennifer they are usually from champan lineage but not champions. I have seen a couple of old champions. I saw a litter of very poorly bred red field dogs that ended up in rescue. They were completely un socialized with people and it was difficult to find them homes. They ended up on the NRSFTC'S blog and the huneters were furious. They caught the breeder I don't know what happen. Pistol Pete was in resue when his owner turned him in due to lack of money. He was out of great field lines the NRSFTC refused to sponsor him, They said it was due to lack of money. This is what I have seen in the US. It is probably different in Europe.The field red setter is a minority in our country. They are now starting to win trials against the pointers and white dogs. They IS is becoming reconized at the the trials. They are keeping up with many of the pointers and white dogs. Some pointer and white dog trialers are in awe watching them run.
Sorry so long but I had to answer 2 questions.

[kristi schrittwieser]

There are also hundreds of thousands of dogs put down in the US. Humane Socities and rescue groups are coming down on breeders. Due to the fact that dog shows and the media make people aware of these breeds millions of people are purchasing them. This has caused an overwhelming amount of show dogs to go to people who know nothing about the breed. The more poplular the dog is the more back yard breeders and puppy mills start to breed the dogs. This is why in the 70's in the US so many Irish Setters were in shelters and put down. They became very agressive, oversized, hyper and not very bright. This was due to over breeding and inbreeding. These were not field dogs.
Many vets feel that unless a pure bred dog is being worked it should not be bred. Over 20,000 dogs in the US are put down a week. Many hunting dogs are aggressive whether they are house dogs or kenneled. They also are usually not interested in other dogs. They are bred for speed and endurance. I do aggree if they are kenneled this will cause more aggression. A dog with speed and endurance that is locked up all day will eventually flip out due to the fact it has nowhere to get it's energy out. This will happen with many other breeds. I have seen GSP that are time bombs waiting to go off. The Golden retriever is having a rough time in the US. Because of it's popularity they have become, oversized, aggressive, hyper and not very bright. Some of them have huge heads and they gain weight very easily. They are known as being brainless. They also have a huge amount of cancer and hip dyplasia. I see 2 and 3 year old Goldens with cancer. There are thousands of them up for adoption.

[eva ciechonska]

Kristi, I can appreciate that dog shows, agility competitions, the media bring dogs to public attention but for millions of people to buy dogs every year there must be a generous supply. There are not millions of show breeders churning out puppies to order. This is where you have your puppy mills and backyard breeders and it is they who satisfy the demand. It is dogs from them that end up in the pound. It is certainly due to overbreeding but PLEASE stop calling every IS that is not a working dog a show dog for show dogs they are not, just badly bred dogs produced for the pet market and for profit.

You still haven't said what a 'puppy mill bench dog is'.

[kristi schrittwieser]

I call most of them bench dogs Eva. We have a large amount of pure bred dogs in the US. That is what people want. That is why thousands of dogs are put down. But is the Westminster and the media that brings the attention to various breeds. It also gets me angry when the media presents the Irish Setter as this large long haired, long eared dog. They also say it has become a house pet and rarely used for hunting. All the other hunting dogs they say are fierless hunters, fast, sleek swimmers and pointers. How embarrassing. The IS is a hunting dog period. The big dog is an absolute replica. I don't think it should be in the show ring. And that goes for the Gordan and English. These dogs are replicas also. All the other dogs look sleek and ready to go. They ruined the cockers and the Springers also. The original cockers and springers are gorgeous. Why not show them. They are the real thing. Not the replica. People would go crazy to see real hunters in the ring. I don't mean to insult you but it's the way I feel. The hunting IS from Ireland is a beautiful dog.

[eva ciechonska]

Kirsti, firstly you are of course speaking for the dogs in America only for it is not like that in the UK. Secondly you are speaking from experience and not just from what you have read, I hope. I do not wish to insult you either but may I answer a couple of points you have made.
A bench dog is a dog that is actually shown. To call any other dog by that title is incorrect.
There is a difference between a pure bred dog with an authenticated pedigee, bought from a genuine breeder, whether it be a show dog or a working dog, and a dog who is bred in a mill or in the backyard and passed off as a pedigree, very often, with fake papers.
I would love to know where all your information has come from and, I think, so would all the genuine breeders of IS in the USA.
The hunting IS's from Ireland are very beautiful dogs indeed, I presume you have actually seen them. But so are the show IS in Ireland and the UK who have been the subject of this Forum and who go back for generations to the 60's and before and the famous kennels that have bred these glorious dogs which form the basis of our heritage. Please do not sweep them away as if they were nothing. That I do take exception to.
In closing I wonder what your views on the last few discussion points regarding the overbreeding and rearing of working IS in Ireland are and the temperament issues. You might need to re-read the last 5 or 6 pages.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Eva, In the US we call IS's that compete in the ring show dogs. Westminster IS's are considered show dogs. The big IS that doesn't show we call bench dogs. The small dog we call the field breed IS. This is how we differenciate between the three dogs. Same goes for Gordans and English. Except the English has a show dog, the llewelliin and the field english which is registered as an ES. What is the proper way to break it down in the UK.