Preference when breeding?

[John B. Hughes/Absinthe]

I get the impression that some here think the perfect Irish setter is either kennel specific/country specific/inbred or outbred specific/beauty versus function specific/or just some nebulous specific.  If it is not out of an English pure kennel, then somehow it has  been contaminated.  If it has been bred to a US Irish setter - most of which go back to English kennels-   then somehow AKC has influenced and contaminated their line.  If it has too much or too little coat-straight or wavy, what to do or apologize for?  So what do most of you look for when breeding and how open is your mind to other kennels/other types/other countries and types when you consider breeding?  Are most here willing to go out of the box and take a chance or stay with what they think they know and continue on as they always have?      

   

[Pat Aldridge]

What a pity I missed the fun - NOT!!

John, am I correct in saying that Candia Indeed died of bloat? Please correct me if I'm wrong...

No names, no pack drill, but some time ago I was told by a long term breeder of Irish that a calcium deficiency previously only seen in Afghan Hounds had appeared in Irish puppies from US lines. No, I will not name the breeder, or the country, or the breeding of the puppies - I merely put this forward to add to the "myths & legends"!.

For myself, I will stay with my predominantly Wendover lines as that is the type of Irish I prefer. No, I will not use American line dogs as I personally do not consider they conform to the Breed Standard of NZ & the UK. Others may see things differently - good luck to them. The only American dog that I DO like immensely & whose picture has appeared in various breed books, was Wolfscroft Amaranthe.

[John B. Hughes/Absinthe]

No names, no pack drill, but some time ago I was told by a long term breeder of Irish that a calcium deficiency previously only seen in Afghan Hounds had appeared in Irish puppies from US lines. No, I will not name the breeder, or the country, or the breeding of the puppies - I merely put this forward to add to the "myths & legends"!.

Classic example of what is called "a Rumor" and I don't remember what Indeed died of, but I will find out for you. I owned a male from what I believe was his last litter and he was born in 1979-so Indeed died young. I was raising 4 children at the time, so I really had more important matters occupying my time.

[Myra Thomas-Rhodes]

According to the American book by Connie Vanacore, The Official Book of The irish Setter, approved by the Irish setter Club of America,I refer you to page 28 under "Charlton" "although he died of bloat at the age of eight, he has remained the leading sire of the breed.......almost every line in the U.S contains some of the bloodlines tracing back to Ch Candia Indeed."

[eva ciechonska]

Are there any photos of Wolfscroft Amaranthe that can be downloaded onto this discussion?
Reference the high tail stack that I asked about previously, I have done some digging and have been told that if you lift the tail close to the root the dog will sink more into it's stifle. That way you get the desired effect of the sloping topline together with great bend of stifle. Stood naturally the dogs don't have that extreme topline or bend of stifle........it is all down to cloever handling.. Any comments please.

[Cheryl Gorey]

Well, I just had a play with this technique with my boy and whilst I can get a little more bend of stifle by lifting the tail in that manner and a slightly better topline, if the dog still doesn't have that longer length of thigh then I don't think it would enable the dog to have that extension and still have the hocks perpendicular to the ground. I have seen some with the lower part of their length of thigh virtually parallel to the ground!!

I was told when I first started showing to put a little pressure around the base of the tail and you get a little more stifle and so I presume the lifting of the tail would assist with that in much the same way. It may also hide an incorrectly "set on" tail too if the tail is not extended out behind level or lower to the back!.

John has loaded a couple of pics of the current USA champions on his page. One dog is stacked with the tail in correct position and the other dog, the tail isn't held at all, so the method of holding the tail has no bearing on either of these two dogs in respect of their length/bend of stifle and topline.

[Melinda Auld]

Surely the dog is sinking down into the stifle to avoid the resulting pain in their back because their tail (an extension of the SPINE, after all!) is wrenched too high, though?

I have seen a few people here try that - with all sorts of breeds. Every single one of them seems to end up with a dog with back problems in a very short time.

I have to question the ethics of anyone who wrenches up a tail, just to get a better turn of stifle - especially if it's not present in the dog in the first place.

[Cheryl Gorey]

Maybe that's why I didn't get much. I didn't like the thought of pulling the tail up and my boy has a very strong tail root and so I wasn't about to make it uncomfortable for him. I promise I won't try it again :-))

Another theory too is that the holding of the tail in that manner would probably give the handler more control over the dog when it is overstacked and stretched so much and it would not be able to move its feet back in underneath him.

I saw a dog being stacked in the ring one day earlier this year, it was overstacked, far too back. The dogs stifle gave out and the dogs stifle dropped down along the ground. It was very sad to see. If the handler hadn't had a hold of the tail in that manner, the dog would have been on the ground. The handler then had to assist the dog to lift it back up into position. It went on to win the class!!!!

[Melinda Auld]

I've seen dogs picked up by their tails like this! There was one dog (and handler) notorious for it here, a while back - with a different breed, though. They have now stopped showing the dog, as it became more and more nervous in the ring (I wonder why). It's one thing for terriers to be picked up like that...from what I understand, they are bred for it. But when the largest breed in the gundog group is picked up by its tail...ouch.

[eva ciechonska]

Well I suppose it is much like "gingering" a horse's tail at a horse show to get the tail up when it is gaiting. I certainly saw that when I was in the US.
Cheryl, that is what my enquiries dug up. I do have photos of dogs stacked and free stood which I took at the Speciality when I was there and the difference in the perception of shape was quite marked. I also have photos of my Louis as a teenager when he went through a phase of throwing himself into his front and sinking down into his stifles where the effect was much the same. Luckily he grew out of that little habit plus I turned him round and stood him left to right which worked. I accept that it makes no difference in respect of their length/bend of stifle and topline but dogs can be trained to stand like that before they even go into the ring. A dog throwing himself into his front straightens the whole forehand assembly. Clever handling does change the shape of a dog. A good handler will improve a bad dog, a bad handler can ruin a good one and dogs can be their own worst enemies by stiffening, twisting and contorting themselves into all kinds of shapes..........I know, I have been there!!! That is why it all becomes so interesting when a dog moves.............

[Cheryl Gorey]

OK. Point taken.

Glad to hear Louis grew out of his little habits. I know Clancy has been a bit of a challenge when he was younger too. I do understand handlers can make or break a dog and good handlers can get more out of a dog than bad ones can.

The dog I referenced above, couldn't move... his rear end is not sound, but he still won!!! Just one of those bad decisions days!!!!!!

Probably why over here we get more jaded than others might in countries where you don't see the different types so much!!!!!!

Anyway, back in my box now.

[eva ciechonska]

Cheryl, I am sorry. Please don't think you need to go into any box, if I made you feel like that then serious apologies.
It is shocking the dog you described went on to win even though he had such obvious difficiencies and it is not surprising that you get so jaded.
I am sorry if I keep harping back to the IS Speciality which I attended all those years ago but it did make a lasting impression on me. I went to a lecture given by a professional handler. Very informative on the tricks handlers could employ to get the best out of a dog and to confuse the judge and that it was up to the judge to see through them. So, yes, a good handler could be the difference between winning or not. A well handled dog catches the eye if nothing else.
Yes, thank goodness Louis got out of all his little habits and believe you me he went through the whole repertoir!!!! His daughter, lord love her, is halfway through hers and his young son has just started!!! I have learnt gentle coaxing is the only way out of it. Forcing, heavy handling does not work. Patience is a virtue!!!!!!!

[Cheryl Gorey]

Hi Eva, no need to apologise. It's nice in my box! It's big enough to have my "reds" in it with me!!!

I wish I was a better handler.... need to do some serious work if I'm going to still handle these dogs for many years to come!!! Feeling too old some days...... I think I'm sooo soft on them, they just walk all over me.

I think it's wonderful that you have so many experiences that you are so happy to share with us. Love reading it all.

cheers