Controversial new film on pedigree dogs

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Jemima Harrison's controversial new film "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" will be shown by the BBC on Tuesday evening at 9pm (Friday 9pm in Scotland). And should also be available on BBC iPlayer.
The Chairman of the KC Ronnie Irving has already issued a statement about the film, see the KC website, without even having seen it
Before it has even been shown, the film is causing considerable controversy in the UK, many people welcoming Jemima's two year research into the genetic problems caused by inbreeding in pedigree dogs, but a few breeds and the Kennel Club going on the defensive
See also the commentary by Beverley Cuddy, editor of Dogs Today, about the film and the recent research from Imperial College, London on the effects of linebreeding and use of popular sires
http://coldwetnose.blogspot.com/2008/08/pedigree-dogs-exposed.html

[Henk ten Klooster]

How about show me your coi and I'll guess your IQ???

[Margaret Sierakowski]

And as I think Frances pointed out, testing doesnt solve all the problems. It shifts the focus to conditions for which we can test, and other problems for which there is no DNA test and incidence is not recorded, like autoimmune problems, heart disease, monorchidism, infertility, epilepsy, proneness to cancers, bloat etc get swept under the carpet, giving us a false sense of security that we are breeding healthy dogs

[ursula wilby]

I can see your point, but still find that testing is far preferable to NOT testing. But obviously trying to take in the whole picture (as much as you can).
I find it very difficult choosing stud-dogs as owners (naturally) want to make money and therefore are perhaps reluctant to tell you what you may expect. So instead of JUST choosing a dog, I feel I have to choose the dogs owner/breeder with regard to their honesty as well.
So it is not easy.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Nonsense. If I can breed COI zero, you all can.

[Laura Kolbach]

Does COI zero guarantee no HD, MO, PRA, etc.?

[Henk ten Klooster]

No. So test for it. But start with COI zero. If you don't, you ask for a new kind mo, pra etc. And a test is possible only after a lot of problems....

[ursula wilby]

If that was a reply to what I wrote, I find it difficult to understand Henk.
I never mentioned COI at all!
And I allways outbreed in as much as not having the same dogs twice on the five-generation pedigree.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Yes I mentioned coi, reason of all problems. No you did not mention coi, only testing a result of too high coi. That is exactly my point, that you do not mention it like many others... You outbreed as much as you can? Congrats. What coi over ten generations?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Ursula wrote: "And I allways outbreed in as much as not having the same dogs twice on the five-generation pedigree."

That made me interested. So I checked the pedigree website. Great names you have like Get off my Cloud, one of my favorite songs. I chose a recent: Born to Run (2004).

In generation five Kerryfair Night Fever dives up three times, his parents one time and a daughter once. Relatively low for nowadays showstock, but far from "not having the same dogs twice in a five generation pedigree".

After that scanning generation eight. The number of forefathers is sinking dramatically there. This is a traditional pedigree of people thinking they do not inbreed because they don't see it. Wrong.

Maybe we should take your facts just like you once said about a serious genetical default "with a pinch of salt?".

The breeding system involved is one of prolonged linebreeding (=inbreeding). That is the system attacked in the film and by most nowadays leading geniticists.

Looking at your possibilities to reduce your coi to zero, they are in your own country HUGE. But you NEVER had any outcross in your lines.

Hopefully you don't take it personnally, it happens a huge lot of times exactly the same that's why I trust you to deal with it in that context.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Possible, if that dog dives up ONLY in one side of the pedigree. See the system to be downloaded at www.tenset.co.uk/fspeed/"> In a nutshell : inbred versus non related inbred CAN provide a low coi.

Systems differ and generations used as well. If you use only 5 or 8, can mean in one system a difference of 0 to around 20.

A widespread belief is that generations beyond a 4 generations pedigree do not matter anymore. Leen reported one such example see http://users.telenet.be/steady-lines-retrievers/setters.htm
This is nonsense.

So these are possibilities. Than there is the human factor of faults. Even quite a lot of famous topbreeders were proven wrong when analysing pedigrees of their own dogs.

Chose yourself what is the right answer. In case of doubt, ask the person or club providing this to put it on paper, sign it and provide info on the way of calculating (chosen system).

It is to be expected that breeding with a high coi in a period where most breeders can know that it is the source of defects, has influence as well for court-cases.

[Henk ten Klooster]

About that one side: yes of course collect as much info as you can. Still inbred x non related inbred is low coi. What is your point Annette?

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Annette, Is the Dutch Kennel Club now recording the COIs of your dogs?