Too dark is when the colour is no longer red but dark brown and too light is like a red haired person(the ginger variety or as we say here carrott top!!- more orange!!) but there are many shades in between these two which are still chestnut!! And there is a definate vibrancy when the rich red hue is there!!It almost glows!! Just my interpretation of what my eyes see chestnut to be! Maybe others see something diffferent!;o)
Carmel in my eyes you've won the chestnut definition price. Again in my eyes chestnut glows more when white is in. When exactly is in your eyes an Irish red setter looking like an Irish red and white setter?
To me it is when the white is too dominant,more obvious than the red(like a border collie's white, which is very definate(although less than the solid colour) but is very evident! The collie is not a solid coloured dog! But a red setter with a small amount of white still looks like a solid coloured dog, especially if the white is not on the main parts of the body for example the legs,feet,tail,back,or face(except for the narrow blaze!!) Labradors also can have a small bit of white on the chest so also the gordon setter, but they too would look wrong with too much white!
I don't like white on red irish setter. Although my bitch has got few hears of white on chests,which were seen when she was a puppy,now only when you look her from very close and put some hair on side. I don't like it even on her.:)
Its a pity that judge you mentioned didnt know the breed standard(small amount of white is OK) The FCI only mentions rich chestnut!! It is the US standard which also mentions rich mahogony!!
I think the colour mahogony, to me, is very much a brown colour, but perhaps whom ever added that term to the AKC standard was still talking about red dogs(just a bit darker!!) Colours can look different to an individuals eyes!!It is quite the opposite here as far as flat coats and wavey coats, the flat coats seem to have more of a chestnut colour wheras the more textured coats seem to be the darker ones!!!! The true chestnut coat looks red, sunshine or not!! Reddish highlights is not the same as red!! The overall colour must be red(chestnut)
I think hair colours from a bottle are a different matter!! The breed standard was written with dogs and nature in mind( I am pretty sure those hair colours didnt exist in Ireland when the standard was drawn up!!) I will continue to believe that rich chestnut and not a deep deep reddish colour is correct for red heads!!:o)
As for facts, so standards, its clearly demonstrated that white on red is in all standards accepted with minor differences and judges do not know this and even penalize it.
Other fact: keybreeders for nowadays Irish setters like Eileen Walker (Hartsbourne) used a legendary variety shower of hail. As nearly all show and working Irish have that bitch umpteen times in pedigrees. it may dive up one day again...
White doesn't worry me as long as it in in accordance with the standard, a small amount on the correct places. As a breeder I will keep a dog with white if he/she is the best quaility in the litter. As a judge I would not fault an otherwise good dog because of the white.
I like a little white on the chest. Havana have very little white on the chest so when her hair on the chest grow, white disappeared (It is but I must look for white to see it).
Little Havana and her very little white: http://hawana.republika.pl/images/hw3.JPG
Thats an eyeopener.....too much white Agnieszka! Theres two showjudges discussing in this topic, Sue Klein and Bernie Martin so hopefully they will react.
My opinion: not too much white for FCI/UK (no amount of white given so could be whole chest), AKC not sure as that standard says contrary to both others "a small amount of"... etc. "Small" in AKC is of course a matter of interpretation. But as you live in Poland, the showjudge is wrong here. But theres quite a lot of them around....
Your observations on vanishing white is what most see Agnieszka and quite a few find it a pity that a blazes or star on forehead nearly always disappear when growing up, likewise chin. It was once high praised nicknamed Palmerston blazes and chin. And some white makes chestnut more glowing....
The photo of dog with too much white(What a crazy judge!!!!!)(that is only small amount of white)My god that is so inside the breed standard!! Please ,please judges read your breed standard before you throw good dogs out!! As for white chins! Rua never lost hers and thankfully judges saw beyond this to award her 11 green stars and 8 res. green stars to give her title of Irish Show Champion!! And she qualified for Crufts twice and has her stud book number also!! She was also the first Irish setter bitch to get Celtic Winner title in '06 thanks to Mr. Reisinger(Austria) And she won out of class of 8 well known bitches!! White in moderation is good!!