AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter (2) update

[Henk ten Klooster]

In case there is a setter heaven, Harry would smile now.This is an update of the topic on AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter, full contents kept.

The Irish red and white setter bred in 1998 in the Netherlands from red parents, is purified from behind his back blame on purity by a DNA-testing scheme in the USA. A research done by Mars Veterinary revealed, there is no difference in his American descendants DNA and those officially registered.

Harry and his descendants were stripped from American Kennel Club (AKC) registry. In FCI-registry his life continues. His daughter Pallas Green Harriet is Irish Field Trial Champion, the first Dutch born and raised Irish setter since 1880 to do so. She is trained and trialed by leading Irish red and white working setter breeder Jim Sheridan (Craigrua) in Ireland. He currently has a litter from....Harry, who died recently, eleven years of age.

See clip on Irish moors by Merete https://irishsetters.ning.com/video/field-trial-wicklow-mountains. Related: White on a red setter, hate it or love it? https://irishsetters.ning.com/forum/topics/865021:Topic:10848

What is your opionion, should the AKC reconsider registry?
........................
topic before:

Worlds probably most adventurous Irish setter, "Harry", again makes headlines.

Today the red and white setter, born in 1998 at the place of Joop Harms in Uden, the Netherlands from all red parents amidst of red littermates, features in The Dog Press in the story "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters", by Mark R. Atkins.

In a nutshell: Harry and his descendants are stripped from records of the American Kennel Club (AKC) although entered in FCI. So in most of the world a recognized Irish red and white setter, but banned by the biggest kennelclub in the USA.

Harry returned a few months ago at the place of his owner, Gerard Mirck. He was in Ireland for matings. His trips before included the USA twice: a mating and field trials (walking). He won.

As well, he travelled all over Europe for training and trialling, competing more times in the European championship for working Irish setters. Once he was vice-winner, in Germany.

What is your opinion: is the AKC right or wrong in stripping Harry? And what are your arguments?

Henk ten Klooster.

You can access "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters" by clicking http://www.thedogpress.com/ClubNews/AKC/06_IrishRW.Setters.Rec.AKC....

[Silvia Lindner-Rae]

Henk, I have been following this discussion off and on and I have to admit I am fairly new in the breed. I have 2 IRWS plus on guest dog and I have 4 IS. First: It is not on us to discuss right or wrong of decisions that other KCs made. They have their rules and go by them. We have to accept without questioning them - were it our KC we could talk to them. But not this way. Second: if you are breeding you have to abide certain rules of your KCs and/or the ones of others if you want to export your dogs or you want people in different countries to use your dogs as stud dogs. So what is the problem: we all post the health records of our dogs or the owner of a certain stud dog allows using him only if we have all the neccessary checks. Absolutely great. And now why do we talk about things in ifs and maybes. I would like to know now in plain words:
a) which health checks has Harry got and what are the results?
b) which show titles has Harry got to his name?
c) which working results has he got?
On most of the breeders' websites you can find just those facts and we are all very proud we have them - and they also cost us a lot of money to get.
I can honestly say I would not let any stud dog near my bitch where I could not see the results of all his checks long before even considering him. And I would require proper photograps not those I saw on different sites which you cannot make head or tail of.
If the owner of a stud dog cannot provide all this it is goodbye before even saying 'hello'. And if all the Harrys out there cannot show any of these records why for Pete's sake should we even consider them if outcrosses were something to talk about.

[Christiane Lohmann]

Silvia, I am sorry to say that working setter world is far far behind show setter world when it comes to homepages, publishing of any results etc.
The working circle does enjoy the performance and that is hard to put in words. You will find very few working kennels with homepages. For show fanciers, they collect show results, which they doubtless will get from every show...for good and for bad. And they like to talk and write and publish it.

The nucleus is the single hunter with his dog...alone out hunting. Nobody standing at the ring and giving standing ovation for great nose work or stylish precise points on game...when out in nature. Most of the time you hunt alone or with a friend, who already knows the talent of your dog.

But all this is so very off-topic that I am afraid Henk will come over and shoot me;-)))

[Silvia Lindner-Rae]

Christiane, I do know that there are not many websites, but that is not the problem - the problem is that we do not know much about Harry as is - we know he exists, he has sired several litters, he has taken part in FTs - AND what??? Of course all our questions are off topic, but one thing leads to another. The question that was asked to start with is not ours to answer. If it had been do we like the fact what the AKC did yes or know, we might have been able to give our point of few. But to discuss if it is right or wrong is not the point. It is by the rule of the AKC...... we did not make the rules, that I know of. And there are a few dogs out there that I do know that do well on both sides - in the fields and in the show ring, and we do know about their titles, work and show and about their health record - Polly being one of them....

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Henk wrote "Personally I don’t understand why you do not look for many more Harry’s yourself and let them undergo all tests or make owners do that, but maybe or logic differs?"

Because more Harry's is not the best way to improve the breed. Red and whites like Harry turn up fairly unpredictably, their parents may or may not be good dogs, they could be absolute *****. On average you will just get average dogs.
In a planned programme of outcrossing red to red and white , a group selects and agrees on the best working dogs to use , the chance of getting good quality progeny is much higher. Furthermore the parents can be tested beforehand for all the known genetic problems in both reds and red and whites. And the outcrosses have the support of the breed club who have done the planning, its a collective approach for the improvement of the breed, not one breeder or owner promoting his own dog

[Ann Millington]

Thanks, Henk, for you kind thoughts on the UK health monitoring scheme and yes, we are very aware of ' throwing the baby out with the bathwater' - which is why we are not complacent and keep a keen eye out for any problems that might occur.

Actually not all IRWS breedings have a high COI, some are below 9%, but of course those breeders who insist on line-breeding are the ones who produce the higher %s - and they are NOT all 'show' breeders! We are very alert to any problem in the breed and follow up all reports to see if there is a pattern or an increasing incidence in the breed - to date there is nothing more than is already known.

I'm not sure what you mean about 'internal friction frustrating open communications'. All the test results CLAD, vWD, PPC and CHD - good and bad - are published by the KC for all to see and are also displayed on the GB Club website.... we are very open - it is not a problem for us.
'Keeping the breed pure' was inherited with the first dogs from Ireland - having achieved a sustainable population of red and white dogs, to cross with red dogs so soon, was/is considered a backward step. We adhered to the notion of two separate breeds that was given to us at the time and have not deviated from it since (this is why UK IRWS people were so mad at the Whisper and Secret fix - but it was already done before the UK knew anything about it and under reciprocal agreements between the KC and IKC nothing could be done about it)

I understand your question, "why do you not look for many more Harrys yourself?"
Because cross-breeding with Irish Setters is not sanctioned in the UK and any puppies that might occur from accidental IS x IRWS matings cannot be registered at all - neither as IS nor IRWS - we do not have any 'Harrys' in the UK. I suppose there have been litters with red & white pups in a red litter and red pups in a red & white litter - we do not know - they are not registered - they are not seen, having been given away as pets. We really have plenty of IRWS in this small island - I'd hazard a guess around 2000. What we are lacking is more far-sighted breeders... but that's another topic! ;o])

[Wendy Bockman]

According to the AKC rules they were correct in stripping his registration. He does not have a 3 generation pedigree of IRWS, he is actually as you have said out of two Irish Red Setter parents so he does not meet AKC guidelines, so yes they are correct. I assume that down the road his offspring will be OK once they have the required amount of generations on their pedigrees.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Yes, when Harry's descendants have reached the fourth generation, bred only to IRWS dogs, and have proved themselves as good working dogs, and good examples of the breed, and are healthy and free of the genetic defects that we test for, I would have no qualms about using them in my breeding. But not until then

[Ann Millington]

I think the AKC was right to 'strip' Harry of registration in their breed register. The AKC requires at least three generations of a breed before a dog is recognised for registration - why should it be any different for Harry? Both his parents are Irish red Setters. However many 'excellents in trials' he has does not alter this fact.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thanks for clear views on the topic - more are appreciated. What about the reciprocal registry FCI/Kennel Club/AKC???

[Margaret Sierakowski]

The Dutch Kennel Club and the Irish Kennel Club have reciprocal arrangements, and its accepted in the FCI that the views of the parent country on its native breeds are accepted. Nevertheless the Dutch Kennel Club disregarded the advice from the Irish Kennel Club that Harry should not be registered as an IRWS. The AKC on the other hand , having a reciprocal arrangement with the Irish Kennel Club, did accept the advice from Ireland

[Henk ten Klooster]

You apparently know a lot about politics involved behind Harry's back. Why - you state you would not think of using him. So what explains your interest and inside knowledge on this topic???

Harry is registered by the same Irish Kennel Club and soon his daughter Harriet -imported from Holland- as a field trial champion...

How would you explain this all to your neighbour who has not much inside knowledge of setters??? Especially if you compare it with the Whisper&Secret-story.....

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Its neither inside knowledge nor politics. I know no more than other people in the breed.
To be honest, I have never found Harry of any great interest purely as a dog, and if you hadnt persisted in promoting him for many years, he would probably have been largely forgotten about. There have been other red and white puppies born from red parents, in the last 10 - 20 years, several in France I believe, but nobody has made an issue out of it, most just disappeared or got registered as Irish Setters.
Its only when you raise the subject of Harry again, that people respond. You asked for views, you got them
Yes, Harry's daughter in Ireland won another Open Stake on Sunday and is now an Irish FTCh, like a dozen or more IRWS have done. On Saturday Deargban Bella, owned and bred by Terry O'Leary, who is also on this list, won at a another trial in Ireland. Are you going to congratulate Terry?
Tell us some more about Harry's other offspring. How many litters/puppies has he sired? Where are they? Are they also running in trials and how are they doing? We dont seem to hear anything about them