Animal Protection: Stop inbreeding, open registries, ban unhealthy breeds, curtail shows

[Henk ten Klooster]

Ban unhealthy breeds, attack inbreeding by opening up of registries permanently, stop breed standard exaggeration, curtail shows.

That is the advice of the Animal Protection the Netherlands (Dierenbescherming). With more than 40% of purebred dogs something is wrong, states the organization. Main source of that according to Animal Protection: dogshows.

Most Dutch media were focusing on this these days, after broadcasting of the British documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed on television.

How is that in your culture and what is your opinion?

[Melinda Auld]

Well said, Cheryl.

[eva ciechonska]

In response. I understand that the breeder of your puppy supplied the information to the breed clubs.
Your website does not just contain a factual account of more or less what happened it also contains, unfortunately, attacks and comments about the 2nd breeder which, as your are not properly aquainted with her, are unjustified and out of order. Also I cannot understand why all mention of Helicobacter and Plasmatic Lymphacetic Entiritis was deleted from your web profile when it was put forward in your original diagnosis. May I take the opportunity here of pointing you in the direction of the research paper "Is Helicobacter the major cause of Gastric Dilation Volvulus in Dogs" by Dorne Carr B.Sc PGCE. It is very informative.
Equally, though you are perfectly within your rights to publish your puppy's pedigree, by publishing the pedigree of the 2nd litter you insinuate that the same is bound to happen, despite the fact that the sire is totally different. This is unfair to both the dog and his owner.
I think that rather than providing me with a copy of the UK veterinary specialist clinical diagnosis, which, I understand was prepared only recently as he did not see your puppy originally, you should send it to your puppy's breeder and her vet together with any outstanding information that she doesn't have. That would be a help to both her and the 2nd breeder, who is not a member of this site and therefore not able to comment or to defend herself.
But then this is going away from the subject of this Forum and I apologise.

[Cheryl Gorey]

Hi Eva, I would love to read the paper you mentioned by Dorne Carr. I have searched on google and can't find it. Would you have a copy you could post on here or otherwise send to me directly?

[eva ciechonska]

Hey Cheryl, I don't have a scanner but will try and do it for you after Christmas. If you are a member of the ISAE or know someone who is, it was printed in the 2002 ISAE Year Book. Let me know if you cannot get hold of it.

[Cheryl Gorey]

Thanks Eva, I will try and see whether I can get a copy from somewhere. A friend of mine is a member now, but not sure if he was back then? I will check some options. If not, I will contact you after the New Year as I would love to read this paper you mentioned.

[eva ciechonska]

Hey Cheryl, I have emailed Rosie Dudley, who is the ISAE Year Book editor asking her for an emailed copy. If she is able to provide it I will send it on to you.
I cannot understand why, with all the concerns about GDV we are not comming together to see if a DNA test can be established for this as we ALL believe that it is a genetic condition. I will email all the Breed Club Health and Education Secretaries to see what can be done. Storing blood samples, buccal swabs, pedigrees etc. for future(???) research is useless when we are living with such a time bomb.

[Susan Stone]

DNA tests nowdays can be found quite quickly for simple recessive gene defects such as CLAD or PRA rcd1.
Unfortunately it is a very different matter establishing DNA tests for illnesses considered to be poligenetic with an enviromental influence (such as HD, forms of epilepsy, GDV). If you look at the link I gave about Genetic Diversity there are certain breeds (ie Standard Poodles) where GDV is suspected to be dominant with incomplete penetrance.

[ursula wilby]

This is actually a reply to Susans text.

I mentioned this before about a DNA-tests for epilepsy (which I thought was almost impossible to test for) yet the vets at the university in Uppsala are collecting bloodsamples of 8 differnt breeds to try to find the marker.

[Cheryl Gorey]

Thanks Eva, appreciate this. I have Rosie's e-mail, so let me know as I can contact her direclty if you wish as well.

I cannot understand why either, but hopefully this forum will take some action. I know it seems hard and we can all discus it till the "cows come home", but unless we actually start to do more than talk, we won't get any closer.

Thanks, that would be great if you could e-mail the Secretaries. If we can at least get some advice on where to start the process, so we do not waste our time in the wrong direction, etc. I look forward to hearing how you get on. The other saying I love is "You can only eat an Elephant one bite at a time". It may take a long time, but we need to make a start somewhere!
cheers

[Catherine Carter]

The process of data collecting has already been started by the ISBC.....perhaps you should re-read your Newsletter. This is the main reason why we have Ed. Ball as our health advisor......

[Garrech and Canagan]

Eva, Again thank you for your input. I think the one thing we both agree that this forum isn’t the place to start arguing or throwing accusations but your initial observations regarding “grievances being aired” were unnecessary and out of place and prompted my reply.

So I apologise to all the other contributor’s who are using this forum for it’s original intention and suggest to all that it’s the COI and blood input together with dogs contained within the pedigree that have produced or had 1st degree relatives with bloat that are some of the important factors in the discussion.

I reiterate that to date, neither breeder has contacted me for sight of the pup’s clinical history and that I have never supplied said information to the selling breeder. I also reiterate that neither breeder has shown any subsequent interest or support in the pup’s ongoing wellbeing. I apologise on behalf of the selling breeder if they have misinformed you.

I totally accept your comment that I do not know the 2nd breeder and yes I’ve only spoken to them on the one occasion by phone that being soon after I realised the pup’s mother had been mated again and subsequently produced ten puppies. As I said previously I’ve never spoken to you although it has since been confirmed to me that you are acquainted with this second breeder.
I used the pedigree to confirm the mothers name as there had been a change of KC owner registration from breeder 1 to breeder 2. This registration has now been transferred back to breeder 1, a procedure the KC confirm is perfectly normal but which I, as only an uninformed pet owner, find a little confusing.
I also reiterate for the last time that I have made no attempt to alter the diagnosis obtained from the first biopsy samples and is still there for all to read. Yes I have updated the page (and others) as circumstances have provided relevant information. But please do not ignore the consistency of the “cause and effect”.
It isn’t my intention as you put it “to attack” either breeder. I’ve re-read the relevant pages and am very concerned as I cannot see where I have caused offence. All I have done is a) voice my grave concern regarding the re-use of the pup’s mother prior to seeing his clinical history and whilst having had the “benefit” of prior knowledge about his bloating and b) confirming the selling breeder’s lack of ongoing interest.

But the re-use of his mother is, of course relevant to this discussion forum and I thank you for highlighting the issue. The question is should the mother have been mated again even with another dog? I don’t insinuate problems are bound to happen only that they “could or might” and whatever the level of risk should it not have been better to err on the side of caution? Neither do I pass any criticism of the "other dog".

The other item of interest which I noted you spoke previously mentioned but haven’t pursued is the involvement of the KC. Whilst the KC must be left to continue their involvement with this issue in the New Year without further comment from anyone, don’t you think that there should be greater regulation, control and guidance on their part to a similar level of respect and consideration for breed health and line breeding that exists in other continental countries?

Thank you very much for the information written by Dorne Carr. It’s appreciated and I will read it with interest. I was aware that this sort of infection can cause similar clinical symptoms to bloat but you might be interested to know that subsequent biopsy samples recently taken show little or no gastritis and no infection. But again it highlights another interesting point. Could bloat be a generic description for the end effect of gassing cause of gassing up which, due to the deep chest of the breed allow a higher risk of torsion? It doesn’t negate that some dogs “could” be genetically influenced by some factor that causes digestive disorders.

I think we ought to stop wasting other contributor’s time wading through the less than relevant detail. If you would like to continue the discussion at this level please email me at [e-mail] (which many have done so already!) and I’ll respond. Alternatively allow me to email you through this site.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Garrech and Caragan wrote: Could bloat be a generic description for the end effect of gassing cause of gassing up which, due to the deep chest of the breed allow a higher risk of torsion?

As far as I know, no research has been undertaken in Irish setter cultures not or nearly not related to the US and UK genepools, where a high incidence of bloat is not reported. These are predominantly working cultures. Their conformation in this aspect differs from their showbrethern. Scientifical research broadened to these cultures might provide answers.

A detailed analysis of conformation all UK (show) champions in a century time might be interesting as well plus their coi.Take for example the biggest showwinners in last century with detailed information on offspring like Ch Menaifron Pat O'Moy (twenties/thirties) - Ch Hartsbourne Popsy (fifties) and Sh Ch Caspians Interprid (nineties).