Animal Protection: Stop inbreeding, open registries, ban unhealthy breeds, curtail shows

[Henk ten Klooster]

Ban unhealthy breeds, attack inbreeding by opening up of registries permanently, stop breed standard exaggeration, curtail shows.

That is the advice of the Animal Protection the Netherlands (Dierenbescherming). With more than 40% of purebred dogs something is wrong, states the organization. Main source of that according to Animal Protection: dogshows.

Most Dutch media were focusing on this these days, after broadcasting of the British documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed on television.

How is that in your culture and what is your opinion?

[Cheryl Gorey]

Yes, I agree Eva, we certainly don't have the luxury of having a breed specialist judge our Irish in Australia very often. so we generally have an "all groups" judge. Sometimes we are lucky if they know the standard well enough to do the judging LOL!

I agree that out-crossing to another line is a risk as the same inherited trait could be laying dormant in both lines and if brought together create the same health problem we are trying to avoid and/or minimise. I have thought about breeding with a field line in Australia, but I do not know much about the lines and so I would have to rely on a lot of breeders to give me their opinions, etc. We all need to be playing on the same field!

I certainly would not entertain any option of outcrossing to another breed. There have been enough rumours about possible outcrossing of some IS lines with Afghans in the past and if this did happen, what has it achieved! loss of conformation, loss of coat texture, loss of head planes and profile... the list can go on and on. but the lines under suspicion still have health problems, GDV, skin problems, etc, etc. Did it happen? don't know or maybe it was just bad breed mate selection and concentration of particular traits in IS that created the changes that we see in some of the lines today.

I have heard a breeder of another breed state that they only breed for obedience, so they don't worry about the height, so over a period of years, the breeding became smaller and smaller. Just because they don't show, doesn't divorce breeders from the requirements to breed dogs to conform to the standard.

The desired result for everyone would be the DNA testing for such terrible health problems as MO, Epilepsy, GDV. How do we get there?. There have been researchers in the past willing to find evidence and try to achieve outcomes, but there has been reluctance by IS owners to come forward to have their dogs included. If we campaigned to have researchers (independently) start these projects, we need an undertaking that IS owners will come forward with their dogs for testing, otherwise, it will all be in vain! To get the outcome of any research to get to DNA testing, etc, we all need to be open to accept the findings as well.

I agree, we can't play God with our, or any other breed. Would love to have a crystal ball sometimes, though!

[eva ciechonska]

Hey Cheryl have faith. IS breeders rose to the occasion with PRA RCD1 and CLAD. We can do it again. I am absolutely convinced that with MO where there is convincing evidence towards a genetic predisposition, with a little bit of work we could establish a DNA test. Entropion too I don't doubt. Epilepsy could be more difficult because there are many causes of fitting in dogs (and humans), many non-hereditary. Here I am sure we would all love to get imput from those that have researched this condition. GDV affects many breeds. We all talk about 'bloat lines' and I am sure they do exist. We will get there.

[Cheryl Gorey]

Hi Eva, yes, I believe it can be done again and as I said in a previous post, I have been very enlightened recently by the honesty of breeders/owners of health issues in the lines when I have made enquiries. I have a young boy who has a grandmother who has bloated (+ others in the lineage further back which has been found out since my little boy was conceived!), so it has been essential for me to ensure that if I get a new girl puppy to breed with, there is as little chance as possible that I could double this up if I decide to use my boy in the future.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I guess the UK has the largest concentration of IS, so that would be the obvious Country to start in, but I'm sure Australia would get behind any research that would make our breed healthier (obviously I can't speak for the majority!!!) but I know of a number of breeders/owners of IS downunder who would welcome the moves towards this.

Everyone, What is the next step, then? How do we make a start? We don't want to talk about it for many years and still have the same issues to deal with, do we?

[Melinda Auld]

I agree with you, Cheryl. I think it is also wise to remember that we were extremely lucky to find a "single" gene responsible for PRA and also for CLAD. And I use parentheses there, because who knows if there are other genes which also carry the potential to cause these diseases?

Most health issues in today's dogs (of all breeds) are polygenetic - carried across multiple genes. Not so easy to eliminate from a breeding programme. And since all genes carry the ability to affect more than one trait, who's to say that eliminating eg RCD-1 hasn't also wiped out the dog's ability to, oh, I don't know, see in colour...or defend itself against a certain pathogen.

And who's to say that opening a stud book won't introduce another way to carry and produce PRA? Or Bloat? Or any number of diseases currently not seen in Irish. At least if we work within the breed, we know what's on the blue-print. Yes, to a given point...and yes, inbreeding will eventually throw up another issue. But remember, for every negative issue, there are positive results of breeding that we simply don't notice, because they don't cause a disease.

Slightly OT, but researchers have found that a gene mutation in the middle ages gave people the ability to resist the Bubonic Plague. Interestingly, the descendents of those same people now have the amazing ability to resist HIV.

"Breeding out" certain genes might prevent certain diseases, but we have to remember we don't know it all. Wipe out one thing - with all good intentions - and we have permanently affected the dog...for better AND/OR for worse.

[Henk ten Klooster]

So far one thing is clearly established from posts here: in many cultures dogshows are under fire for much the same reason: as a source of health-issues.

Susan Stones post suggests the wind can be taken from sails of opponents by making activities like shows instead of an (alas proven!!) vehicle of narrowing genepools, exaggerating standards and sickening dogbreeds into an instrument for health, keyword education.

What do you think, could that provide an answer for future? As for Cheryl stating the IRS has the "largest concentration in the UK", knowing they have as well the smallest genepool and highest average inbreeding percentages, what might provoke changes there?

[eva ciechonska]

Hey Henk, don't keep bashing the dog show people - remember it was the breeders/exhibitors who clubbed together and contributed to the DNA tests for PRA RCD1 and CLAD and we can do it again. I wish you didn't keep calling it 'inbreeding', and, on the contrary, it has not been at all established from these posts that dog shows are the route of all evil. Your pure working lines have similar narrowing gene pools as you breed selectively too so lets not go down this road again. As for the UK having the smallest gene pool, our dogs are no less fit and healthy then european dogs and with the introduction of the pet passport we are be able to increase this by sharing breed lines between many countries. With the advent of the internet we are also sharing our opinions, concerns, information with breeders all over the world. With all these tools of communication we should be able to eliminate prejudice not fuel it and words like 'exaggerating standards' 'sickening dog breeds' etc etc just promote this ignorance - and all this from people who should know better!!! Give it up Henk and concentrate on the positive not the negative - it is SO counter-productive............

[Henk ten Klooster]

Eva, you mistakenly take the advice of the biggest animal protection organization in this country for my personal opinion. First is on topic here.

This organization wants -is clear from series of publications in main media- take the lead in the world to provoke a what is called "revolution in dogdom". That is banning unhealthy dogbreeds, forbid inbreeding, forbid dogshows or at least curtail them, to prevend animal cruelty.

This organization is not a bunch of activists, but the biggest animal protection organization with the longest history and huge support in all branches of society.

Try to stay on topic, like Cheryls post.

[Melinda Auld]

Hi Henk

I think the problem with the "huge support" you mention is that it is mostly coming from a public ignorant of many of the real issues involved - a public who believe whatever animal protection agencies tell them ,whether it is an accurate reflection of the dog world or not.

Our voices are disregarded, simply because we are painted as the bad guys...a tactic employed easily enough by the media, and perpetuated by animal protection agencies serving their own political agenda, when docos like Ms Harrison's come out with no right of reply from breeders (or for that matter, canine councils) trying to do the right thing.

It doesn't matter what sport our dogs are into. The fact that some outside organisation can come in and start laying down rules about how we can or can't breed our dogs is a concern for all. And who's to say they'll stop with "in-breeding" as you call it? (I wonder if all those royal dynasties throughout the ages who married cousin to cousin would call it the same??)

[Henk ten Klooster]

Hear how this sounds: animal protection organizations are wrong, genetic experts are wrong, media are wrong. But we are right. The only problem is that nobody knows, because our voice is not heard.....

Or try this one: they are all fascists.

About "our voices". How would you define those? All people here are Irish setter fanciers....

If you want to win a future for the Irish setter to survive as a healthy breed, you have to think of something else. Like hard evidence that you are trying to assure genetic diversity (number one for survival). Or hard evidence that you are -and succesfully- battling breedspecific conditions like bloat.

What is shown here, that exactly the opposite is the case. Irish setters that have bloated, are mongst the most prominent keydogs in pedigrees and in nearly all, because you did not follow up the advice of genetic experts (unlike most other breeders outside dogsports) to safeguard un- or not so much related families.

The cause of that was dogshows, wordlwide everyone is busy copying successes in the UK. Never in the history of the Irish setter, such a narrow population was that influential and widespread. Nearly all our own experts have warned for that.

Talking about voices unheard.....

[Susan Stone]

...judges should be aware and take into account the inbreeding of dogs in their judging
Aleksandra, that is not what I said. That was your interpretation.
I wrote:
Show judges go through various training courses which include behaviour, anatomy and genetics by Dr. Heinrich Binder where risks of inbreeding (and linebreeding) are explained.

The judge is assessing the dog on the day of the show, with no further background information about the dog himself - as you correctly point out. A judge should be capable of assessing the qualities of the dog present in comparison to the standard.

I am surprised that neither you nor Eva consider it necessary for a judge to have any idea about breeding (breeding IS genetics...). After all, what are dog shows about? It seems I was under the misconception that dog shows are aimed at finding the 'ideal' animal for breeding purposes. The judge decides on the gradings so it would surely help if the judge had an idea of the genetic background of faults he/she may see and be capable of grading faults according to severity. Constructional faults or problems affecting health (example sagging eyelids) should be penalized more heavily than purely cosmetic faults like colour.

[eva ciechonska]

No Susan, you misunderstood me. What I said was that in the UK, where most judging is undertaken by breed specialists it follows that, as breeders they should have knowledge of genetics in order to breed (before they set foot in the ring). In all other countries where breeds are judged by non breed specialists you have a bigger problem to address because, unless you educate non breed specialists in the breeds they are supposed to assess then all you will get put up is flashy dogs that race around the ring at 100 miles an hour. I have NEVER said that breeding and genetics don't go hand in hand. Please re-read my comment. As for dog shows being aimed at finding the ideal animal for breeding purposes, how does that follow. If you have a dog who is beautifully constructed and wins all the time does that mean every breeder should use him?? Of course not otherwise you would reduce your gene pool in one generation. Construction faults (example sagging eyes) ARE penalized. No judge will put a dog up with Entropion. Dog shows are beauty competitions where dogs are judged and compaired against the breed standard and each other and placed accordingly in the opinion of that judge. That does not mean they will all be found suitable for breeding purposes - that is for the breeder to decide, not the judge. As for a judge being required to have knowledge of the genetic background of faults he/she might see - why? If they see a dog with a construction/genetic fault they penalise accordingly - job done.
In response to Henk - I find it tremendously frightening that a fascist organisation can hold such sway that their mandate advocating 'banning' ' forbidding' etc. is actually gaining support. 'Putting your house in order' is the only answer before it is too late and our life as we know it disappears forever under mountains of legislation. God I am SO glad I am 60 and, hopefully, will not be around to see that day!!!!!

[Henk ten Klooster]

Eva, can you please provide us your definition of fascism?

I checked their website to doublecheck your information and found out that what you call a "fascist organization" is a democratic organization founded in 1865 in the Netherlands for animal protection. It had tremendous successes in improving life for animals during its existance. It has now around 200.000 members in this country.

But I never exclude that there is information available that might throw another light. So go ahead, explain your point...