Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[eva ciechonska]

Henk..........I do love you.....you are so passionate and a fount of all knowledge, I bow to that.
HOWEVER, you persist in thinking that the only Irish to change in the last 50 years are the show dogs, and not for the better. Though I am in agreement with your comments on the American dogs. The working dogs have too, on the admission of the field trialers amongst us.
We all wear rose tinted spectacles, I know I do, I am sure even Bill Rasbridge did. There were good and bad dogs with good and bad movement then, as there are now.
It is interesting that the UK standard is the only one that doesn't adopt a height requirement yet more IS fall between the the FCI min/max heights than do in the countries where the FCI standard is embraced. Funny that!!!
Incidently one of my first show dogs had very little bend of stifle and moved like a train with a great ground covering stride. I have a 14 month old dog with tremendous bend of stifle who moves like a train with a great ground covering stride. I have seen dogs with little and much rear angulation who mince round the ring...........what is a poor judge to do??????

[Melinda Auld]

The ANKC standard doesn't have a height requirement either :)

[eva ciechonska]

Apologies Melinda, of course the ANKC standard is as the UK standard.......I got carried away.....as usual.

[Melinda Auld]

LOL no worries :)

[Henk ten Klooster]

A judge could compare into detail changes between show USA and field trial on horseback, thats where the biggest changes were. So BOTH.

As for right movement, thats where education is missing. This is based on analysing all relevant publications in breeds history.

Thats why probably most showjudges could write a book about heads, but not about essentials.

You can tap relevant info from the working fraternity. This was done by quite a few showjudges earlier decades, missing now (documented). And the change was analysed by experts all terrains: Rasbridge (show), Nagle (dual), O'Dwyer (field).

An exaggerated bend of stifle is a problem, "because the load from the body is being carried by the stifle rather than the feet" (The Irish Red Setter pp 158) "resulting in increased stress and therefore reduced stamina"

All of it is in that oneliner Who teaches the teachers (Sybil Lennox).

[ricky young]

Hi All
Let us all not forget that we are all privleged to be owned by an irish setter. We all take the best dogs home with us after the show and if the judge hasn't put you up,they were looking at the wrong end of the lead again. It probably makes no difference to what we say,I will like my type whether they look like an afghan,boxer or whatever and you will like yours. Who has the best ? We can argue for years. Lets get a life and show off our dogs cause their all beautiful and special. Good luck to us all.
Cheers Rick

[Cheryl Gorey]

I agree and I do feel very privileged to be owned by an Irish Setter and a lot of us do have the pure love of our dogs blinding us to think that we bring home the best dog after the show!

But I have to disagree that it “makes no difference to what we say, I will like my type whether they look like an afghan, boxer or whatever and you will like yours”. If I own an Irish Setter, I want it to be like an Irish Setter in looks, character and conform to the standard. If I want an Afghan or a Boxer or whatever then I should purchase that breed and NOT change the Irish Setter to be something that it should never be. As custodians of the breed, we ALL MUST acknowledge the state our breed is in and strive to improve them in every way…. Health, structure, etc, etc to bring them back into line with the standard..

[Melinda Auld]

I would expect them to put up the dog or bitch they best feel suits their interpretation of the standard on the day.

As to how their interpretation is determined...that is their own story.

I think when faced with a line-up of dogs which are all - or mostly all - the same type, and that type is different from what you're used to seeing, you will probably put up the best dog of that type. Even at the Vic specialty, I don't think there are ever many - if any - purely UK type shown (or not recently, anyway!).

[Cheryl Gorey]

"I would expect them to put up the dog or bitch they best feel suits their interpretation of the standard on the day,"
"As to how their interpretation is determined...that is their own story."
I agree with Melinda on these two statements.

As I haven’t been present at these shows, I could only make comments of conjecture as we can never know what methodolgy used by the judge on the day! However if I have a stab in the dark.......

Perhaps the Judge (in their opinion) felt that the soundness of the combo breeding was more sound than the other dogs being exhibited on the day? I don’t know which shows are being referred to, what dogs or what types were exhibited on the day. As Melinda eluded not many purely UK type dogs make the trek to the Sydney or Melbourne Royals to exhibit. Personally, 2000 – 3000kms is not a distance I plan to travel very often for dog shows.

I also agree with Melinda on the percentages of the types in the ring and have seen this happen that if the majority of specimens are of a certain type, then the judge may put up the type where there is the largest number of dogs to chose from.

Also, I have seen where judges have chosen dogs from one type in one class and then chosen dogs from another type in another class or put up one type as BOB and then put up the other type in the Group Class line up and the BOB doesn't win it's class in the group?.

[Melinda Auld]

I am probably mistaken, but I thought in the catalogue from last year's specialty there were no UK types being exhibited? Entered, maybe, but absent on the day?

I remember a few being shown a few years ago.

(This is specifically the ISCV show I'm talking about - I don't know about the other shows.)

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Do you think anything you read will change the way you think?
It is summer., the time to be outdoors with the dogs and cutting grass :)) (I'm just having a coffee break, then going out again to walk more dogs and cut more grass)

[Ossian]

I can hear the bl***y stuff growing under my feet. I took a break from work and sat outside. Mistake! I started pulling up a few weeds and then got a bucket and the hoe. That was over an hour ago!!

Have taken refuge inside where I cant see it anymore!!