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Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini

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Certain things I agree with you on. If you are a FT judge you are the experienced one. I am not saying your dogs are mixed but I believe you have Brophey and other field dog in your pedigrees. Your dogs are beautiful. Field lines are almost a different breed. They run differenttly, think differently, are quite small and point staunchly. I could care less about a high tail also. I don't think that the NRSFTC created this dog planning on relicating the original IS. They spent years trying to create a dog that could hunt and gain respect for the breed in the field. They are still trying to get respect and they are getting recognized. It is because of there size, speed, gait and ability to hunt. I can tell your dogs have field lines in them. If a dog is finding birds and competing no matter how high the head and tail are I agree with you it should not matter. I think the pointers brought that into the picture. According to my breeder that is what they wanted, a high tail. I don't understand what the written standared is. I believe the reason the field dog was created was due to what the show standard in the US became. I don't agree that small setters are not built correctly to do there job. All ffield dogs I have seen run big and hop through field swamps etc. I understand a dog shouldn't be judged on a classy stylish run but it is beautiful to watch. The ISCA and AKC doesn't accept a duel registration for setters that are bred now do you think these hunters care about what there standard is. I think Bropheys dogs are beautiful and so are many other field dogs from various breeders. I am partial to the field dogs. I would not get another big running dog unless I trialed it. I cannot keep up with them. Your dogs are very beautiful and I know they win and thats all that matters.
Good on you Cassie, the only way we are going to prevent this beautiful breed being completely ruined is by doing exactly what you are trying to do and breed for both field and show. It is a shame that not more breeders, myself included in that, don't make more of an effort to look at their own show dogs and breed to improve what they have got and not just for coat.
I agree Joanne. But if you look at Cassies pedigrees there are field lines in all. I don't have a problem with that but the bottom line is, the NRSFTC brought this breed back from scratch in the US. Many people including ISCA don't want to or like to admit it. The European dog was always left on the field. In the US it was not. The real IS lovers saved the breed not the ISCA nor the AKC. Without the NRSFTC they would be exactly where they were 60 yrs ago. Why people have such animosity towards that club is beyond me. If more peolple were like Cassie the dog would be healthier, respected and happier for doing what it likes to do best, hunt. My girl lived to run and hunt. How people could have wanted to steal this passion from such a beautiful dog is pitiful and selfish. They should own a Pug that is meant to walk in a show ring.
But the spit came because of all the behind the barn breeding. AKC was behind crossing the English setter in the Irish to "save" them and that breeding was done on paper so it could be on record. The behind the barn breeding is where the problem is there are many pedigrees not worth the paper they are written on (Show being as guilty as field) Human nature any time you are competing someone is going to cheat to win. If you want a dog that point like a pointer get a pointer. If the bird instinct is getting in the way of your showing cross it with an ?????
Ladies........no one, not even people that show, have ever wanted to steal the passion from the IS. I have been to the US, I have shown, I have stayed with friends who show and their dogs (I accept not everyone's) are out in the field the next day exercising their passion and it is a joy to watch. My own pure bred show dogs hunt, go on point and back each other. They have never been taught, they do it on instinct. Of course you cannot compare it with the working dog and I appreciate that they would not cut it in the competitive field, I accept all that but I do not know a single show breeder who would want to get the bird instinct out of their show stock. Of course I speak from mainly UK experience.
I will never believe an IS wants to be in the show ring. It is a lively Irish Red Dog meant to be free in the fields not walking arouned the Westminster show ring. This is my opinion.
There is no where I can reply to your post. Most of the winning dogs have been outcrossed. Obviously the IS changed so much it was impossible to out cross it without the whole world knowing it. The first cross was the American field bred pointer with the english setter for speed and stamina. Does AKC no that. No because it was not noticeable. It was all about setters when the dogs were brought over from Ireland. Then the German Shorthairs. They could do everything except big running and stamina. They out crossed the dogs with the american field bred pointers. I could not believe all the white in there field trial dogs. They are also breeding smaller dogs because they want to win. I guess AKC doesn't know that either. The IS was impossibe to hide and no longer considered a hunting dog. I get sick of hearing on TV and from other people that the dog no longer hunts. Even hunting sites are still omiting the IS from the hunting brtreed list. Look at Pheasants forever. Every breed is listed except the IS. There had to be a reason for this.
Kristi, believe me only a dog that enjoys showing can be successfuly shown. You give up with a reluctant dog. Dogs can go ballistic at the sight of the show bag, you cannot get them into the car fast enough. They can bounce into the ring one day and hunt the next. Show dogs are not puppets, it is a great shame that you see it that way.
There is a no reply on your post. The pedigrees I know were a problem. I think I know what you are talking about can you please explain. What you are doing which I respect and I hope it works.. However the two dogs are almost a different breed today. Looks speed style size coat point tail. So who can really point the finger at anyone. If a field dog is AKC and a red dog is AKC crossing them is again bringing another dog into the picture. What do you think?. Again why doesnt AKC and the ISCA focus on some of the other hunting breeds. Could it be that ISCA was a little bothered that the field dogs came in and took over there events. The trials were completely taken over by field dogs. With the attitiudes each side has toward each other wouldn't this be very possible. I saw your dogs and they are very beautiful. I like Mythodical king of fools and russel. They both look to me like a filed and a show setter. I think it is genetics also. My dog looked and ran completely like a sires side. She had a pedigree with ironfire, brophey, zan sett celtic and fairie tail which no longer breeds. She looked a lot like bropheys dogs.
Kristi,
There are many theories on the origins of the IS but the accepted one is that it came from the large Land Spaniel. "The most part of their skynnes are white, and if they are marcked with any spottes, they are commonly red and somewhat great therewithall".....Dr Caius 'De Canibus Britannicis' 1570. Refer to Henk, he has done much research on the early history of the IS.

You have no idea whether I do or do not read about the health issues of all pure bred dogs, however, I am not "a jack of all trades, master of none" and would prefer my in depth knowledge to be specific to the IS.

"Seems like many people don't like working dogs on this site"
Actually the reverse is true. It is the working people who constantly criticise the show dogs. We know where it all began and we haven't lost touch with it.

Don't only read Lar on the 'sharpness' of working dogs, he is just responding to Margaret, Colette and Trudy........read them, that is where I got it from. It is also from them that I learnt about the overbreeding, rearing and re-homing of working dogs in Ireland.

Once again......Joanne is talking about US bred dogs and the influence of them on the Australian IS. Why don't you read Myra Thomas Rhodes (Amhurst) she has many years experience of the IS in OZ and the changes that have occured. That is why she breeds the UK type of Setter.

My original question was about puppy mill BENCH dogs, find that one and don't be pedantic.

On health issues once again you refer to Lar when you should also be refering to Trudy, Margaret and Colette.

To my knowledge there have been no IS (Red) Dual Champions in the last 10 years in the UK. Possibly in Ireland, Trudy or Carmel would know better than I. Margaret would be able to tell you how many IR&W's. But you only asked me about the various terms used for IS in the UK and that I told you.

I am not just talking about myself when I talk about good breeders. I am not doing this single handed, we are all in it together. Health schemes, Codes of Ethics etc. are set up by the Breed Clubs and we all participate. I keep having to repeat this because you choose to ignore it. Of course healthy debate between parties of differing points of view is a great thing but we all stick to what we know and exchange information that way and learn from it. Your sphere of knowledge is the USA please stick to that.
"To my knowledge there have been no IS (Red) Dual Champions in the last 10 years in the UK. Possibly in Ireland, Trudy or Carmel would know better than I. Margaret would be able to tell you how many IR&W's. But you only asked me about the various terms used for IS in the UK and that I told you."

I dont think there has ever been a dual CH Irish Setter in the UK. There have been a small number of full champions (Sh Ch with a show gundog working certificate)

There are no dual CH IRWS in either the UK or Ireland
Knockane Sherry (owned by Terry O'Leary) came very close, she was a Sh Ch who also wonan Open Stake
In Italy Fiorella made up United Spots Irish Pride as a dual Ital Ch, andmore lately made up United Spots O'Healy as a dual Int Ch
In Argentina Ruth and Juan Casey have made up one of their IRWS as a dual Ch
Pepperstown Polly is an Int FTCh, won 3 CACIBs so very close to dual Int Ch, and is also an Irish Sh Ch
There have been 3 full Ch IRWS in the UK and around a dozen in Ireland
Margaret.
"I don't think there has ever been a dual Ch Irish Setter in the UK"
I must do some more research on this because I thought there might have been among the Sulhamsteads. What about Ireland?
Thank you for that I thought there might have been more in the last ten years......what about going further back?

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