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Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini

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Heading for the finish of this topic I'll contribute one on future, in response to Susans post. I've reread all posts and reacted where appropriate and possible timewise.

This topic asks for documented opinions. Where possible, I've provided sources, so you can check them yourselves.

Those that were active in (most of) topics timeline may have seen themselves how the breed changed - or not. In conformation, health, character, working capacities.

But quite a few times, you see history happen but you are not aware of it. When you provide your version of what happened (like here), you may be surprised to see others have seen something very different happen.

If you stick to Derrycarnes, their direct descendants are now divided over two breeds, the Irish red setter and the Irish red and white setter. The shower of hail Irish setter nearly disappeared. Likewise the Irish red setter that can win field and show. All documented facts.

Irish show champions like Alcoholic would have no chance now, even in Ireland itself. The showjudge will tell you it misses showfringes and has a hole in the breast, the field judge in France will tell you its too big.

You would run the risk of becoming an alcoholic while breeding this type in whatever activity.

So a few of my wishes for future are beneath health first, quality information and more steering from organizations such as Irish parentclubs, stop division over colors and recognise all of them (end of two breeds). And a focus on the opinion launched in this topic that some genepoles are healthwise minefields . Your opinion?
Eva

l have the 1949 Edition of Denlingers book The Complete Irish Setter if you wouyld like the use of :
June if you want to read yourself real big into IS history, order all books mentioned as sources in The New Irish Setter written by W.C. Thompson. It is a fascinating compilation of sources. One that has fuelled lots of my beachreading is those on Smada Byrd written by Horace Lytle he was one of the pioneers of the American Red Setter movement. What a piece of real bonding with an Irish setter.
We are heading for the deadline of Did the Irish setter change in half a century or not?

I for one have enjoyed it, sometimes inbetween WC soccer games I just couldn't stop myself from reading some posts quickly on a laptop even while on holiday in Hungary.

What I especially appreciated was contributors trying to learn from eachother.

It was my last topic in this site and it has my best memories of my favorite Irish setters. Experiences in worlds best wildernesses is what I want, so typing in this site has come to an end.

Who-ever wants a few last words extra, welcome, I'll close it for comments Saturday Dutch time 24.00 hours. No comment of mine anymore so you can shoot me in my absence, I wish you all the best of luck in future.

And don't forget Devils Dearest!!!

Groeten Henk.
Thanks Henk for stirring the passion within a lot of us here. The subject is an extremely important one and I'm sure it has many members thinking about the changes in the breed over the past 50 years (and even further back). Hopefully it will remind us all of the important part we play in the future of this magnificent breed.

My hopes for the breed are:
Improved health and longevity;
Preservation of the magnificent temperament that we know and love;
Where possible, these wonderful dogs have an opportunity to perform their function, but no-one should be denied the privilege of being owned by this extraordinary breed and enjoy their hobbies, whatever they may be!
Never lose sight of the essence, structure and function of THE IRISH SETTER and DO NOT breed for the purpose of wins in showrings.

Best wishes Henk for your future experiences in the wilderness. Hope you pop into the site from time to time (even if only to stir us all up :-))

cheers, Cheryl
Also want to thank everyone who contributed to this lively discussion. It has been great sharing information and views and getting all opinions and I have enjoyed being part of it. cheers
Following on from your wishes Cheryl because I know we all wish the same for this beautiful breed.
My fear for the show ring is that the future of the IS is being placed in the hands of judges who do not and never have owned the breed, who don't care about it, who judge it as a red dog flashing round the ring with no thought for the beautiful head, the quintissential character and personality and above all the type. We are already losing this on the continent where there are very few specialist judges to preserve the balance. We must pull back before it becomes too late.
This discussion has been frustrating, heated, passionate but best of all it has been an amazing exchange of views giving us (definitatly me anyway) much food for thought. I am sure we will all come together to discuss many other topics in the future.
Henk....think of another subject for us to get our teeth into......something for the cold winter nights..........you have all summer to research!!
I have checked the books that I have and I have "The Irish Setter in Word and Picture" by William C. Thompson. published by Denlinger's 1954; and "The New Irish Setter" by same author 1978 - Eleveth Printing Howel Book House Copyright 1968; 1967; 1954; I must read them both to compare!!

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