New 'Eye Problem In Irish'

[Dee Rance]

I have been trying to think of a way to post this...I have been banging on, on this site, about breeders and owners, 'putting their hands up' to a ''new problem'' or even a problem that has been around for a while. So I am putting my ''hands up''
Some people will have see the Blog placed by Carol Gill (thank you Carol for posting this) called ''Crufts 2009'' in this blog it states that there is a leaflet supplied by ISAE with reference to a 'new eye problem' in Irish setters. It does not say which lines, or who own the dogs, this problem has been found in..Carol asked me if I knew!! (all three people involved have stated that ''If asked we would not lie'' we would say who we were).
I have one of the 3 ''affected'' dogs, 3 doesn't sound much but when you think that only 7dogs have been tested then this number is quite high.
The dogs have what we think is akin to or is CSNB (Congenital Stationary Night Blindness) which is found in Breards only, at the moment, THIS IS NOT PRA.
The dogs in question have the problem in varying degrees Jas being the worst one affected, she is clinically blind at night.
People have already said that they feel that this comes down a particular line, and named the dog...
PLEASE LETS NOT START SLINGING MUD AT DIFFERENT DOGS, OR ABOUT DIFFERENT BREEDERS. although my bitch and her sister (the other affected bitch) do have many famous dogs, in there lines the THIRD dog has a very different male line, so NO MUD SLINGING PLEASE I am putting this on this site, to get a conversation going, and to see if there are people who have noticed a problem, which I have to say is VERY difficult to see, I have heard of people with totally blind animals that didn't know their dogs were blind, if it happens slowly the dogs adapt to their surroundings, and these, affected dogs, CAN see during the day...
I must reiterate that a breeder CAN NOT legislate against something that they do not know about, and this comes from very diverse lines. If you feel that your dog has any kind of vision problem please ask, where ever you are, this could be a very widespread problem.
Lets now discuss this and see if we can get to the bottom of it ASAP....lets not let it linger and spread through this lovely breed, it isn't PRA, or something painful like Bloat, but it must be very distressing for the animal and I know that it is distressing for the owner involved. We all love this breed or we wouldn't be on this site, and this site is so good to ''get the word out'' and lets see if you can get this eradicated.

[Catherine Carter]

Hi Dee,
I know how hard it must have been for you to post this discussion and also the last few months of silence....You have brought it out in the open now....thank you....we are here to support you and we will get to the bottom of this...we need to for the health of our super breed!

[Kristina Brannlund Westin]

Hi Dee!

Agree with Catherine, we have to get to the bottom with this and I believe that this three dogs who is involved are only a "tip of an iceberg".
Anyway, just like to say once again, Thank´s Dee for beeing so open about this and lets hope we all can be honnest about information concerning this Night Blindness.
And lets work hard to leave a healthy breed for future generations.

[Dee Rance]

I am sure Kristina that if people like yourself have the breed in their hands, it will be safe I think that this discussion has opened a door to other problems, and I do hope that we can all work together to get ALL these problems under control, and I do hope that we can get it soughed in at least my lifetime. Which doesn't leave us much time...
And I think that you are correct in thinking that it is just the tip of the iceberg. I think that there are many other affected animals out there.

[Dee Rance]

I thank you so much Caatherine and lets get talking about it, I have wanted to for a long time, not because of secrecy but trying to get more dogs tested, couldn't say anything until we found that it wasn't just a familial problem in Jas's litter. Lets hope that we can get to the bottom of it, for the breeds sake

[Susan Stone]

Hello Dee,

You know how much I apreciate your openness and honesty in this matter. I can also understand your worry and concern for your girl Jas. I am pleased you say she has learnt to adapt and cope.
Speaking openly about problems encountered is the only way forward and will help increase awareness and finally, hopefully, enable scientists to find a DNA test for the condition. I read somewere that they need 12 samples of affected dogs so that the BVA can start to develope a DNA test, providing he problem is found to due to a recessive form.
As you say, what must not happen is finger pointing and putting the blame on any one dog or line.

If we want to ask the question 'why' then maybe we should re-consider the general breeding practice so prevailant today. Due to the high level of close breeding in our breed ('inbreeding', to call this breeding practice by it's proper name) we are bound to come across problems sooner or later. In my opinion we breeders should be more aware of the risks of 'popular stud dog use'. First generations may seem ok, but when it comes to planning future matings we breeders suddenly find there is no-where to go without doubling up on those popular sires. It has happened many times in our breed and is happening again now.

I will not 'spoil' you posts by carrying on about HD, but will start a new one on the subject.

[Dee Rance]

No Susan go ahead.....I put this on, with this problem, but I did say all the problems that are in the breed and HD is definitely in the breed as well. Any way yes you are quite correct all the breeding with the 'popular sire syndrome' is reducing the gene pool so much.
There was the Forum re COI and this I think hit on something that has been put forward by (I think) the Dutch KC regarding the number of bitches that can be put to one dog. I think that the number was 10, it is these popular sires, that become Money Cows, and they go to everyone and anything that will pay, Again I am not pointing a finger at anyone or any particular dog, as you say it has been going on for many many years, way before (you and I ever were a twinkle in our parents eyes) and way before any of this come up. But it has now reared its ugly head, and we, as breeders and owner, must stop it now, LOPRA is now back. and there are probably many dogs out there that have this condition as well, people become complacent when they see PRA hereditary clear. Yes clear for PRA RCD1 but not for LOPRA this needs testing for regularly. I have asked someone to put her thoughts on this problem as well, Eyes are so important....

[Dee Rance]

If it gets going please put your 10p worth in to the discussion, I now have some of the leaflets, is there anyone out there than can help me put it on this forum???. Carol Gill has put the inside of the leaflet onto the other blog but I will still be trying to get it on this Forum. For this discussion.

[Dee Rance]

There is nothing there to reply to

[Dee Rance]

Oh well done Camilla.
Thank you so much for putting that on the site, very clear as well..I certainly couldn't achieve it. All the information does apply to LOPRA as well, in fact the 'test' started off as a test for LOPRA so the two are kind of connected, the only difference is that LOPRA CAN be seen by an ophthalmoscope, and CSNB CAN NOT.....but if anyone has a problem then please go to one of these eye clinics, and I hope that I made if quite clear.........THAT NO DOG, NOR BREEDER, should be pilloried for this. I will say it again, as far as CSNB is concerned, NO PERSON CAN BE BLAMED FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT KNOWN ABOUT UNTIL NOW, if people know that their dog is affected by this, or any other eye problem, and carries on breeding from their animal then SHAME ON THEM.. and they should be banished as far as breeding or showing is concerned. (I have to say that this is only MY opinion) I do feel very strongly about this, as you can probably gather......and please read the attachments that Camilla has put on above.

[lyn hathaway]

hi dee,
many thanks for opening this discussion regarding the new eye problem that is at present showing in irish red setters.i also think you are very brave admitting that your jass is one of the dogs that has been diagnosed with having this condition.
i have read the leaflet and thought i must write on this blog to make setter owners more aware of testing for lopra.it is a MUST that dogs are regulary checked AND NOT RELY ON THEM BEEN HEREDITRY CLEAR as my dog layla is one of the dogs professor bedford disgnosed with having lopra in october 2006 and she was only 2 and1/2 years old.she is hereditry clear of rod cone 1 pra and she was tested clear of rod cone 1 pra yet still she has this horid disease.this test is done by opthalmascope and is not distressful to the dog.
we only knew layla had a problem when she went to stay with my daughter for a few days, and with her been in different surroundings she was vey disorientated (been at home she had adapted to where things were ect).Oh theres been tears many many tears but all that matters now is laylas needs and helping her adapt to her disability in which shes coping extremeley well.
I also agree with you dee this is not a time to blame any breeder whose dogs do get these eye problems and its also not a time to blame the owner of the dog for "coming out "regarding the problem.if everyone pulls together and helps one another the sooner these problems will be eradicated from the breed.this should be eveyones main concern.id like to say i had 200% support from my breeders they were our rock and i know now that they are only a telephone call away if i ever need them
i would just like to say dee i hope you get the support of all dog owners in the irish setter fraternity, has they too might have to deal with this problem one day

[Henk ten Klooster]

Sorry to read about new misery for Irish setters. The dominating breeding system will alas according to experts lead to much more misery reread Conflict over Coi, Is the Irish setter a ruined breed? and more topics posted here.

No doubt what once was the best gundog breed ever is now a victim of vanity (quote of many experts) suffering from lack of knowledge (mine). Many leading showscenes are described by succesfull insiders as "a count up of lying, cheating and hiding and most of all stupidity" adding "covered by a social atmosphere of congratulating eachother" and that is perfectly and exclusively:) documented on this site.

Go on discussing openly, that might help providing this scene a purifying mirror. Congratulations on doing so!!

[Kirsty williamson]

Hear hear Camilla, the most important thing is that we all work TOGETHER!!