Do we have an Irish red and white Setter???

[Anna PIllans]

Can anyone help, we adopted Rhoan out in Gibraltar, she was originally a stray from Spain. Can you please let me know if you think she is an irish setter as we were lead to believe she is a brittany spaniel.

Many thanks

[Susan Stone]

Hi Anna,
for some reason the forum posts on Exclusively Setters have got blocked around Nov. 21st - I'm sure you will get some replies if you put your post under the Blog post. I'm interested too!

[Margaret Sierakowski]

She looks very much like an IRWS to me, although lacking a patch at the base of the tail which almost all IRWS have. The head looks more like an IRWS than a Brittany, longer muzzle. How tall is she at the shoulder?How long are the ears? IRWS have longer and lower set ears than a Brittany
Is the red a really deep red or is it more orange?

She could also be an ES/Brittany cross?

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Around 1904/5 there was a cross (or two crosses) between Brittanys and the red and white "setters ecossais" of Robert de Montbron, which he had imported into France in the late 1860's,early 1870s from Scotland. These red and whites were identical to IRWS , and almost certainly were IRWS, although its a mystery how they got to the north of Scotland, the area around Inverness. De Montbron was shooting in this area in 1869
The Brittany/Setter cross is not a rumour, I have the correspondence between Robert de Montbron and the Brittany breeder
In histories of the Brittany, one may read of "Gordon Setter" crosses, but this is a mistranslation of "setter ecossais". This was where the clear red and white , still seen in some modern French Brittanys , came from, although the clear red and white of Brittanys in the US is probably from different origins

[Henk ten Klooster]

These red and whites were identical to IRWS , and almost certainly were IRWS, although its a mystery how they got to the north of Scotland, the area around Inverness. , Dalriach wrote.

Heres an end to this mystery. From memory: Lord Rossmore, the Irish family playing such an eminent role in latest revival of IRWS, had hunting grounds in Scotland. Theres an old card here, made in twenties or thirties last century, showing this. I'm searching for this card and will publish it when found on www.Iersesetter.com

In histories of the Brittany, one may read of "Gordon Setter" crosses, but this is a mistranslation of "setter ecossais". , wrote Dalriach.

Mistranslating is understandable as the Setter ecossais is in German Schottischer Setter and Dutch Schotsche setter. Theres a picture here of the "Schottischer Setter" Mistral de Forsacas in a magazine 1906 showing "Verschiedene Typen des Setters Franzosischer Zuchtung". That is definitely an IRWS typewise. Another version says they were from original stock of Laverack.

There were around three hundred bred in forty years time. The French kennelclub recognized the breed in 1900. It vanished as a breed.

The Brittanny (Epagneul Breton) was recognized 1906. Colours around that time: white-chestnut-white-black, more rare: white-orange. White-black was bred out.

In 1914 white-chestnut still dominated, later white-orange.

Apart from the vanished Setter ecossais-Schottischer Setter-Schotsche setter as contributor to the Brittanny, also other setters are mentioned as contributors. The white-chestnut becoming white-orange tells the story of what breed dominated contributions and when...

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Henk wrote
"Heres an end to this mystery. From memory: Lord Rossmore, the Irish family playing such an eminent role in latest revival of IRWS, had hunting grounds in Scotland. Theres an old card here, made in twenties or thirties last century, showing this. I'm searching for this card and will publish it when found on www.Iersesetter.com"

No, Robert de Montbron's dogs had no known connection with the Rossmore dogs. He got his first red and white in 1869 from somewhere near Inverness in the north of Scotland, and then went back to Scotland and bought a bitch somewhere further south. There were several landowners in the Inverness area who had setters of various colours including red and white. There were red and white setters at Beaulieu Castle, the Dukes of Gordon also had at least one or two red and white setters

Maurice Nugent O'Connor was the first Irish man to rent shooting in the north of Scotland very early in the nineteenth century, and may have taken some of his setters to Scotland

At that time Robert de Montbron was in Scotland ,the Rossmores had no connection with Scotland. But Lord Rossmore married a daughter of the Duke of Hamilton, and as part of her dowry the Rossmores acquired a shooting box on the Isle of Arran in SW Scotland, where they kept dogs from the 1880s
But there is some confusion - there is another Isle of Aran on the coast of Ireland where the Rossmore family also had connections, I think it is mentioned in Millner?

The story that Robert de Montbron got his dogs from the Rossmores is a myth

The other possibility is that the eighteenth century red and white setter wasnt particularly Irish, but a generic red and white setter, common to Ireland, Scotland and maybe Wales too

[Henk ten Klooster]

The other possibility is that the eighteenth century red and white setter wasnt particularly Irish, but a generic red and white setter, common to Ireland, Scotland and maybe Wales too, writes Dalriach.

How about Bretagne as well - they share celtic origins.

As for other info - I try to find that card back. As far as I know it was based upon written sources available around that time (late twenties/thirties). Your apparent work diving up other sources (???) is interesting. Tell us more.

As stated theres another source saying they were descendants of the original two founding setters of Laverack not yet with strange blood in it.

Answering the question who's right who's wrong would take a huge amount of analysing historical sources. For me, the interesting question would be: WHY DID THE SETTER ECOSSAIS-SCHOTTISCHE SETTER-SCHOTSCHE SETTER DISAPPEAR?????

Was it inbreeding? Was it the Brittanny winning terrain after having "lend" some better setter ecossais blood? Is this like what happened with red and white strains "diving under" in famous -later- "English" setter strains and pointers like in the USA???

Is this an early lesson for what is still done - banning terrific Irish setters just because they are or are supposed to be mismarks on the basis of relevant young standards denying historical facts??

Is this where the English setter and pointer have beaten the red setter, themselves knowing many colour-cariations so not burdened with colour blindness???

Anyway, thats why I would want to know why this once legendary breed totally disappeared, just like more times the Irish red and white setter.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

My source for the origins of the de Montbron dogs are the descendants of Robert de Montbron, who sent me some of his correspondence .
After Robert de Montbron died , around 1910/1911 , his dogs were taken over by his daughter Antoinette, who continued to breed them. The line was inbred, and while de Montbron was alive there had been an outcross to an English Setter to bring in some new blood (this is documented and I have a photo of the English setter that was used).
By the nineteen twenties, the remaining dogs were said to have become small and weedy (I have some photos from the twenties) , probably due to inbreeding. They seem to have disappeared by the late thirties, although I have read somewhere, cant remember where, that some last surviving ones may have been crossed again to Brittanys after 1945
I can put up some pictures of the de Montbron setters if anybody wants to see them

[Henk ten Klooster]

My compliments. Great research work. A legendary breed vanishing but living on in Brittannies.

I have seen your pictures once, yes it would be good to see them again!

You wrote: "probably due to inbreeding". Thats a conclusion based on what? French Park setters 18th century nearly disappeared because of inbreeding (some are still founders of our breeds or varieties). So again a case before we knew about coi......

[Margaret Sierakowski]

"As stated theres another source saying they were descendants of the original two founding setters of Laverack not yet with strange blood in it.

Genetically improbable, as Laverack's two founding setters were black/white

[ursula wilby]

Certainly looks like a red & white setter to me.

[Laura Kolbach]

all brittanies i have seen have a harder expression and ears set higher. so i vote for r/w setter in case of Rhoan. :-)

[Nicole Wilson]

It looks quite like a setter to me too. Brittanies have less hair on the ears too, as far as I know.