Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[Ossian]

Really good commentary and I agree - it is your choice absolutely but I think I would still be tempted with a dog of huge potential - because I couldn so it myself - to recruit the services of the right trainer. What about people who put pro handlers on their show dogs.

I would say it is the same with a trial dog. If it comes back in a state then the blame is in large part yours. It wasnt the right trainer, the dog isnt the right dog and the owner has not checked often enough that the dog is ok. Ya pays yer money ya takes yer choice!!!

[eva ciechonska]

Ossian. My personal choice, but I would want to do everything with my own dogs and always have them with me. I would not send them to a pro handler either. If I am not able to do it myself then I would have to learn and learn until I can. If I were to employ the services of a professional trainer then it would be to teach me, not my dog. No one but me has ever shown my dogs, not even when I first started, I learnt the hard way.

You are also totally right on your 2nd point and that is exactly why I would never consign my dogs into the hands of others though in all fairness you can do your homework on a trainer who could come highly recommended and still get it wrong. However there is absolutely no excuse for the condition a dog comes back in, that is just sheer negligence.

Ya certainly can pay a hell of a lot of money and the choice ya makes can be one choice too far.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

"I have, over the years, seen too many come back skinny, bald, covered in sores and afraid of their own shadow........you will never change my opinion on that, no matter how much uproar I create among the working fraternity. "

I'm amazed by this!
There are so few working Irish Setters in the UK, and most are trained by their owners, people like Billy Darragh,Mary Tuite, Steve Robinson.
And currently I can only think of two or three reputable and established UK trainers who will take on working setters and none of them would send a dog home in that state
If setter owners used other lesser known people to train their dogs, and got them back as you describe, then they should have checked the trainers out better before using them

[eva ciechonska]

Margaret, I agree wholeheartedly. hence all my reservations. However, I have heard of similar experiences on the Continent.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

"The lovely thing about showing dogs is that anyone from any walk of life can start with a dog of any standard and they will be embraced into the fold and helped to make the best of their dog. They are not belittled and alienated because of their dog's breeding."

Sue, imagine this scenario

You are showing your Irish Setter at a big UK Ch show.
Next to you on the benches is a newcomer who has never shown before. She has a young dog that she tells you she has imported from Ireland, so it is the "real McCoy". Both parents are FTChs, the dog is 23" at the shoulder, weighs around 43 pounds, you can see its ribs, it has very little coat or feathers , and the colour is what Ray O'Dwyer describes as golden chestnut She has high hopes for this dog in the show ring and thinks it has wonderful conformation and movement

Do you:

1. Encourage her to show her dog, offer to take her and the dog to your ring training class, help her with trimming and grooming it, and agree that there is no reason why she should not do well with it at shows. It is really a good example of a working Irish Setter, with sound construction and movement (even if it doesnt look much like your dog)

2. Politely explain that if she wants to do well in the show ring, she would do better to look for a show bred dog, from a well known show breeder. And your best friend just happens to have a nice litter , both parents are show champions and have 65 CCs between them

3 Go off to the other end of the benches, and have a good laugh with some of your friends about the dreadful working dog (a midget, half starved, yellow) , and the stupid woman who thinks it could do well in the show ring

How do you think the judge will rate it as a show dog?

[eva ciechonska]

Margaret, an interesting point because that actually happened to me a few years ago , except that the dog was UK bred but but in all other respects as you descibed.
What I did was trim it for this lady before it went in the ring. Though the coat colour was a little light the dog was a good mover and had generally nice conformation. It didn't get placed because the lady had never shown before and didn't know how to present her dog to it's best advantage. The dog never made it to the championship show ring but did some useful winning around the open show circuit.
I think the majority of show people would do 1 or 2 but 3!!!!!! you present a caricature here and do most of us a disservice.

[Ossian]

Ladies we all have example where we have helped a newcomer and been helped ourselves but we also all have stories from ringside. I will not even begin to elucidate but we none of us can deny that there is always someone out there who will belittle a dog, tell you at ringcraft that it will never win anything, take a Coat King to it and leave it like a bald eagle, or even ring you up and tell you that you should never have been sold that pup - if you want a show dog you have to have one of mine..

We may be "nice" people who take an interest but as Burns was heard to say "there's damn few"

[Margaret Sierakowski]

My point is that if you really want to train a setter to work, most working people will do exactly the same, either be willing to help you and give you sound advice and encouragement, or help you to find a more suitable dog for your purpose

[Ossian]

I can vouch for this but you have to show willing if you want to learn - I find a lot of folks trail round saying I would really like to do more with my dog but when you ring them up and say that you will meet them that evening (and it happens to be raining) they have something else to do/
I genuinely feel some people SAY they want to learn but.......

[kristi schrittwieser]

Very well put.

[Ossian]

Sue
I really think you should stand around the Gordon rings more!!!

[eva ciechonska]

Ladies....there is good and bad on both sides...
Ossian, I have a very good friend who shows Irish, English and Gordons with success who says the same. She gets nothing but support from the ES and IS exhibitors but the GS exhibitors are totally opposite. Why would that be? She has all but given up with her Gordon Setter dog.