standard?

[Wim Dokter]

Is it that there are to little owners off working Irish setters at shows

that the standard will not chance?

In my opinion things will chance when there are more off them at shows!!

[Christiane Lohmann]

Although this is a bit off-topic as well, I would like to add my few thoughts on this subject. The big thing about trials is not only to "run fast" and "find game" and "point". It is also about "be trainable", "be intelligent", "keep cool" and "keep contact to handler".

We expect a firm point and the dog may not move when game rises. Points preferably on winged game. So this is sometimes less hunting practice, where you can shout, but more sporty situations...especially on big trials.

So any chasing is a NO-GO, but still this is not the nucleus of trials.

What I am afraid of, is the fact that the parametres of the breed are set to extremes by adding alien blood either for more working talent or better chances on show. Not in GB for sure, but elsewhere.

 

[Susan Stone]

Mel, it would be great if you could get the owners of these dogs to join in on the discussion as their first hand experience would be interesting to hear.

By relatively recent I assume you mean the Grayrigge chmapions, Ch Kylenoe Chrystal Spirit and Ch Carnbargus Cashmere... and Crufts BIS being Ch Astleys Portia of Rua in 1981.

Christiane, a small translation problem in your last post, 'winged game' meaning injured game. Not what you meant to say I am sure..;o)

[Christiane Lohmann]

Thank you ! So is it feathered game then ? Opposite to furred game ? Both very tasty,-))

 

[Christiane Lohmann]

re Ann's idea -

Exactly this is always asked if you want to get an INTERNATIONAL working title (C.I.T.): Your setter MUST have a VG or Exc on an INTERNATIONAL SHOW,-))))

Vice versa the old title of Int. Show Champion (C.I.B.) asked for a VG or EXC on a NATIONAL FIELD TRIAL added to the show tickets.

Only recently FCI decided to make more money by adding a new title for working dogs without any working trials;-))) The C.I.E. was born.

Vice versa a working champion without show results ? No way....

 

And again@ Ann

Scandinavian countries still ask for a 1st price on field trial before a setter can be declared as show champion.

 

 

 

[Katariina Roiha]

A correction to that 1 time 1st price or  2 x 2nd price at Open Stake field trials + 3 CC´s

In red setters in Finland 2011 became 1 FI MVA (Finnish Show Champion) Douedal´s Oz-zo with 2x 2nd prices + 3 CC´s

[Ann Millington]

Ah, Eva

Yes I did think a working setter should win 3 CCs before qualifying for its Champion title - do away with Sh Ch and FT Ch and require - for working setters a) to be placed first at the Pointer & Setter Champion Stakes, b) to gain two first awards at two different Field Trial meetings in Open Stakes under two different judges PLUS 3 CCs under three different judges. For show setters 3 CCs under three different judges PLUS a first place at a Pointer & Setter Champion Stakes or two awards at two different Field Trials in Open Stakes.

Tarantara!!! Your Champion Irish Setter!!!

Sadly VERY FEW titled dogs will get there :o(( - making the title possible to only the priviledged few who have the time, the money and the suitable dog......

But is it all about titles?  Surely the the Breed is much more than that? Let's face it, both Showing and Field Trials are simply hobbies and we should all be concerned for the the future of Irish Setters as a whole both in health and their raison d'etre.

We're working with this in IRWS - the longing is to produce healthy dogs that owners can take into whatever activity they wish.  Naturally we would like the activity to be both the Ring and the Field and are now boosting the Field side with our acquisition of moorland and farmland, centrally located to be within reach of most folks.

Our aim is to train owners to train and handle their dogs to work - not Field Trial unless they wish to go into that hobby - but to make use of the talents the dogs still have - and yes, most still have some talent.  There is scope to include the other Setter breeds in our training as well as the opportunity for trained dogs to run.

Getting people involved requires effort though and the hope is that those who actually do work their dogs will take advantage of our facilities and thereby bring the 'working side' into more (and harmonious) interaction with the 'show side' of the breed - whichever Setter that might be.  That way, given time, the differences can be ironed out - probably not in my lifetime but we have to start somewhere and NOW is as good a time as ever.

[eva ciechonska]

Yes Ann, you are right......sadly, very few titled dogs would get there.  Very few titled dogs, mine included, would have the the turn of speed to take a first place at any award at a Pointer & Setter Champion Stake, or at a Field trial.  I agree it would take time, money and dedication AND the suitable dog.  On the other hand sadly,very few working Setters could manage a placing at at any championship show.  We are poles apart but under the same Breed Standard.  We shouldn't expect our show Setters to be heavily boned, large framed dogs as we shouldn't expect our working Setters to be light in bone and body.  We have made them so to satisfy our hobby, whichever one it is, and that includes the aquisition of titles.  

I think the idea of offering the facility for owners to make use of the talents the dogs still have is a very good one.  From small acorns large oaks grow.  

Christiane, I think Susan makes many valid points pertinent to this discussion, among them the lack of pointing instinct in the IS.  It is certainly a good point for debate within the scope of this Forum.....why make it another post?

 

[Christiane Lohmann]

@ Sue - I would say it is a question of prey drive,-)))

 

And before we continue a discussion about: MY doggies point and back and do not chase hare and I have no opportunity to show how much better MY dog is than all others....please mind, that although this is interesting - it is OFF TOPIC and I am not sure if Wim wants to know. The original thread-theme can be read above.

[eva ciechonska]

Christiane, the subsequent comments are following on from a thread that Susan started. Surely all members contributions are to be welcomed and debated, whether on or off topic. If you think the debate is going in the wrong direction then please feel free to bring it back into line. I am sure Wim would welcome all points of view.
Incidentally your English is very good.......we all get your meaning perfectly.

[Christiane Lohmann]

Yes,  I agree. Maybe a split of the discussion could be done and Susans debate about "the lack of pointing instinct in IS", which I think is also very worth the discussion, posted separately ?

And sorry if I forgot to post some ;-)))))) above in my previous post !

[Wim Dokter]

By my experiance with the Weimaraner it's hard to say that dogs from a show lina can't point.

The best Dutch all round Weimaraner is one out off a show line!

But that's one off thousand!! And good hunting parents are now reasen that youre dog will have the same skills.