Over trimming or shaving of the Show Irish Red Setter?

[Carmel Murphy]

I would like to know the opinion of all show people on the over shaving(trimming) of the setter? I was very surprised to see that trimming is actually mentioned in the AKC breed standard (coat section)"Trimming is done to preserve the natural appearance of the dog" How over trimming or shaving can preserve a natural look is quite puzzling to me!!!! I make my dogs as neat as possible for shows with a scissors or hand plucking but never put a blade near them!! I think that over grooming is quite the opposite of the natural appearance!! I believe over trimming/grooming makes setters look a bit like cardboard cut outs,not real dogs!!!!!!!!

[Chantal McIlveen-Wright]

Just came across this blog, thanks so much Carmel and so so so very happy to see that I am not the only one thinking that way!!!  :-)

Nevertheless it is an issue as some judges (international scene here) prefer a kind of good trimming, not just looking neat. I have no problem accepting and respecting anyone else views of what is nice, good looking, properly trimmed and groomed, everyone is entitled to their own taste and opinion, but not when it could come at a cost during the show. What is the most puzzling for me is the fact that our show dogs now tend to have much much more fur than let say in the 1950s. So did we increase the fur in order to trim it????? A matter of taste but I feel really sorry for the blonde ears of some Irish in their wonderful mahogany coat. The good news is that I can see a reverse trend now regarding the ears, they are getting longer and less shortly trimmed :-)  :-)  :-) so, hope is in the air!!! I totally agree at making them neat but once again it is a subjective word and open to many interpretations and controversies :-(  May be one day we will accept dogs the way they are and no longer impose our subjective views of beauty, grooming and trimming on those magnificent Reds. 

[Christiane Lohmann]

How very nice to bring up this topic again. I have been thinking a lot about it the last few days. After I judged the male pointers and setters on European Dog Show 2012 and the czech clubwinner the last two weekends, I was amazed to see so many shaved backlines and heads. I have noticed that especially the IS in german IS club had the tendency to shave the ears. But right now I begin to wonder if we are facing a new fashion in grooming setters into big american cocker spaniels. 

[Chantal McIlveen-Wright]

That is exactly the point Christiane, shaved or cocker spaniels type, we tend to introduce fashions instead of preserving their natural look Carmel was mentioning. But once again, everything is so subjective, what do you think of this video, would it be considered as an acceptable trim?  http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-Groom-the-Ears---Irish-Setter-1984...

[Carmel Murphy]

Thanks for video Chantal;o I used to trim ears like that when I first started showing, but found it gave a rather bald look to my girl's heads! So, Abbey only gets her ears tidied up, as I do think feathering on ears is part of the look of setters;o)

Picture of Rua Crufts 2006, baldy ears!

[Chantal McIlveen-Wright]

Carmel where is the picture of Rua and you, Rua paw up to ask you something???? 2 hours and cannot find it :-( I wanted to see the difference, anyway I love, adore your girl but I do have an issue with the change of hair colour on the ears, sorry :-(

[Carmel Murphy]

I have a problem with different ear colour too and thats another reason I dont trim ears too much any more;o)

 The photo  on facebook?

This photo?

[Chantal McIlveen-Wright]

Yesssssssssssssssssssssss   please put it on your pictures folder too, it is such a wonderful picture of such a wonderful Red Lady  :-)  :-)  :-)

[Carmel Murphy]

The photo is there now;o)

[Torie Lancaster]

I dont like to see Setters ears or necks shaved.  I agree with Carmel and Chantal and like the tidied up look which does not look so severe.

I looked at the video Chantal and felt nervous all the way through it!

How that lovely, restless young dog did not get nipped with those scissors I have no idea.  He looked very nice when she had finished though.

[Chantal McIlveen-Wright]

Was feeling the same Torie, very nervous ... and was thinking that trimming is definitely not for me!!!!

[Christiane Lohmann]

I am just a young judge, being 4 years on board and had the honor to judge some big shows in europe so far. After 25 years of involvement into trial scene, I just can beg everyone to pay attention that shaving is a no-go !

We had discussion about it among german judges and feel it necessary to point out that already shaved ears are not wanted. Not to talk about pricking hairs on the topline.

Somehow I have the feeling that afghan traits are more common nowadays in IS and along with that, we have american style of trimming first in GS, now ES and latest IS. Much fur, narrow chests and lack of stop along a - how to say ? - cotton like quality of hair. Rather fluffy and easily tangled.

As we do a kind of "examination" of all dogs that enter breeding in german Verein für Pointer and Setter for the last 4 years and I am one of the three judges that write the critics, we have discovered that the coat quality, i.e. it's structure, is very important as well. It should be strong hair, silky but not wooly. Shining.

By the by, I was happy to be invited to judge the czech club show last saturday and pictures are just uploaded.

https://picasaweb.google.com/101286957680099132203/2012KlubovaVysta...#

 

Regarding the pictures of that puppy being trimmed...WHY ? Reminds me of our daughter who has a doll head to play with and comb hairs. OK when dogs are older and take things more easy. And only little use of scissors...Wonder when we see men on videos grooming dogs that way....,-))))

[Ellen Turberfield]

Just watched the video your right i felt nervous that puppy would get nipped with them scissors, my Finlay doesn't like sitting still to be brushed.