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Over trimming or shaving of the Show Irish Red Setter?

I would like to know the opinion of all show people on the over shaving(trimming) of the setter? I was very surprised to see that trimming is actually mentioned in the AKC breed standard (coat section)"Trimming is done to preserve the natural appearance of the dog" How over trimming or shaving can preserve a natural look is quite puzzling to me!!!! I make my dogs as neat as possible for shows with a scissors or hand plucking but never put a blade near them!! I think that over grooming is quite the opposite of the natural appearance!! I believe over trimming/grooming makes setters look a bit like cardboard cut outs,not real dogs!!!!!!!!

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So start practising with the dry coat now, if you can brush your dog you can use a dry coat, (do you think that she will give me some discount???) My hair dryer is human one as well but is '24000W turbo', sound posh but was on discount in Tesco's so not a great deal of money but better than the one that I had before. Oh how lucky you are to have easy coats on your dogs, Jas's coat is a nightmare if you could see her now!!!! Curls Curls and some dreadlocks added for a little 'twist' ;-))
So don't put yourself down about putting the coat on.......if I can do it anyone can.....
Cant wait to see the before and after photos when Jas is getting ready for Crufts! Hope to fly over to watchCrufts so will see you and Jas there!!!!
Before and after photos would be nice! Anybody?!
Wine and Nibbles at my bench!!! I just hope that I can do a good job on her!!!! Don't think that she has ever been so curly:-))
Sounds good Dee! Its the first time being at Crufts and not having to drive up to Holyhead to get the ferry home after!!;o))
Will look forward to seeing you then....More relaxed than usual ;-))
Best to practice on something that isn't going forward for scrutinisation!!!!!!! A dog would be better than this forum at the moment... it is getting very confusing don't quite know where to go on it next. Bits are popping up all over it, a wee bit like Jas's coat at the moment, anyone got any tips on how to deal with it :D)))
The Irish Setter given to President Nixon was a pet quality dog, bred by Ted Eldredge of Tirvelda Farms. Unfortunately, the President didn't even like the dog, he was cared for by White House staff who had no idea what proper care of an Irish Setter's coat would entail. The Tirvelda dogs in the early 1970's also were bred down from an import from the UK, Ch. Hartsbourne Sallyanne and those early generations didn't carry the same amount of coat that the later Tirvelda dogs did. There are still some lines of Irish Setters here in the U.S. that are not as heavily coated either. Some breeders breed specifically for the extra heavily coated, others breed more for structure and movement. I've always been more concerned with structure, movement and good health and temperament than how much coat a dog carries. The photo of Magic shown on my profile page was taken at 12 years of age and a friend had used her to practice her grooming skills on. Unfortunately, she skinned Magic's under throat too tight which shows up in the photo, not how I groom my setters by any stretch, but a professional photographer at a dog show wanted to do a protrait of her so I consented. The painting created from the photograph is priceless to me. The brace photo are of her son and daughter out of her only litter. A littermate to my brace was shown in Europe and did pretty well over there. There are other photos of Erica on my photos page also, at different ages. I loved their headpieces and their floating movement as well as their gentle demeanor and temperament. Erica was spayed at 6 years of age so her heavier coat in later years was due to the resulting spay and lack of hormones. She lived out her life in a lovely pet home in California. The only Irish I have now was bred by someone else, carries a thick cottony coat even tho she isn't spayed. She is more of a challenge to groom than any other Irish I've ever owned. Just keeping her coat free of knots and matts takes a lot of time every day and when winter time rolls around with all the rain and mud, I just shave her down and let it all grow back in the spring. Yep, I use clippers too, coat is too thick to even try to scissor it off. It all grows back in a few months and the work starts all over again. She's worth the effort tho, keeps the birds and squirrels on notice and entertains the Borzoi who also live here.
That does seem to contradictory, doesn't it? I try to trim just around the the top of the ears and the muzzle hairs and that's about it except for the fringe and tail with scissors just so it doesn't become "straggly" looking. I look at it the same as trimming my own hair. I get it trimmed now and then just so it doesn't start to look unkept. Just so it looks neat and clean.
Barbara - excessive coat is easily fixed, happened to dive up here same timelines (partwise same lines). Easily bred out as well thats what I saw in matings with a by far most hugely coated dog x an Irish import (duals).

Descendants kept athletic style (like Milson O'Boy), super structure, sound movement and lived up to high ages, healthwise super. Some -if needed- good duals as well.

Anyway, all here now are never shaved, plucked or trimmed in their lives - everything is by nature according to the FCI-standard.

Why didn't Nixon like his King Timahoe? Seems he did in the pic (and theres many others!). Was he too busy with Watergate or what?
already posted these earlier in the celebrities with irish setters discussion, but here they go again:

I have been encouraging a dialogue along these lines recently in a few different venues here in Canada and in the US. To begin to use clippers, then blending with shears, then stripping...is a slippery slope and one even I have been dragged into. Where does it stop? I had just attended a judges' seminar on IRWS and brought to another list the question of why the Irish (Red) setter cannot be more encouraged to go back to the original tidying and neatening grooming procedures like are so specifically mentioned in the AKC's IRWS standard.rather than the over grooming and sculpting that it is now. It is almost as much a grooming contest as a dog conformation contest now. I REALLY think that breeding for too much coat here ins North America has lead to much of the perceived need to groom to the extent that is now seen. The texture of the coats is often not correct and that in and of itself leads to the "need" to groom it differently. Imagine if each exhibitor had to let his/her dog go into a field that birds naturally live in prior to showing. THAT would fix the tendency towards over coated dogs - overgrooming does not fix an otherwise incorrect coat, it just approximates it by cutting it. I hear over and over again from show folks here that they cannot go to hunt tests because it takes too long to get the debris out of the coats, or that the dog loses too much coat in the field. Holy cow folks, this IS a sporting dog! If I take a nice dog to a show now, CLEAN, neatened around the feet and neck, whiskers left on, and with no artificial product in its coat, it loks like a farm dog next to the over groomed and moussed dogs out there. It takes an awfully good judge to find a good, but not over groomed, dog in today's AKC or CKC ring. It means my dogs have to be THAT much better, since they will be the odd man out. Being odd man out means that often the judge will go with the look that is more common than to reward an otherwise better animal...

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