South African FT Results GREAT for IRS

[Londa Warren]

Red dogs won two of the three stakes - something called Maiden in addition to the Championship. Thought you might be interested!

http://www.fieldtrialpointers.net/2008SAFTCreport.html

Is there anyone on this list from South Africa?

Londa Warren, Edmond, OK

[ursula wilby]

Stunning place and brilliant photos!

[Susan Stone]

The photographs are brilliant!
Take a look under
http://www.fieldtrialpointers.net/SAFTCphotos.html

In the text what I did not understand was that' the red setters in South Africa set rather than point'. Can anyone explain?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Wow beating that many top pointers illustrates ability of red setters to adjust better than pointers to terrains and scenting conditions. There was nearly no wind I understood.

Yes the set ingredient was surprising - because many entries come from the Field Dog Stud Book, the eldest American registry for Irish setters not recognized by the AKC. Apparently winning red setters are from Irish (European) genepools, quite a few still set (=lying on point or crouching so not standing-see the Irish standard for the working style).

In American rules set is considered an eliminating fault (right Londa?). One of the reasons why resurrection of working red setters in the USA was with nearly no influence of the revival in Ireland. USA topbreeder of working red setters Dr Roger Boser told me he visited John Nash (Moanruad) once, but saw too many crouching or lying on point.

Good place to be for (hunting) holidays!

[Henk ten Klooster]

Someone here who knows more about South African trial setters? The first Irish Irish setter here (NL), Derrycarne Harp, was sired by a SA dog called Redsun Roland of the Rand. Thats seven generations from my eldest bitch here. I'd like to know backgrounds of SA working red setters nowadays.

As for set/point and tail high/level or low, my experience differs with my USA bred bitch and observations of setters in America and their descendants in Scandinavian cultures from post above (based on experience?). Tail high is not trained here, but inborn. Set as well. Offspring from mixes with Moanruad or old Scandinavian show more level/low tails than high tails. I've seen no setting in them only pointing.

If higher tails can be trained, it still means more work so a choice for inborn natural high tails seems logic where cultures concerned demand that in their rules for trials. Likewise an inborn set means for Americans an eliminating fault contrary to some European cultures.

So rules alas dividing already small genepools.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Tricky tales that tails tell.

Ofcourse training a high, level or low tail is possible (strike it into the position favored). Still the point that it takes more work than a natural high tail, stands. Same for set/point.

Yes there are still natural level/low tailed setters in the USA and some natural higher tailed native Europeans. The Springset working Gordons makes certainly an amazing story in those and more aspects.

As for plain practice. I favor the high tail of my USA bred Clancy in the field. Working in densely relative high covered fields, it was her tip o' tail high in the air telling tales otherwise untold. Level/low tails can than be truly tricky!

[Henk ten Klooster]

Gennadi just like you I'm interested in backgrounds of the SA working red setter family. The winning dog might be from a strain started in the twenties last century. I've asked Vanessa -who writes a book on SA IRS- to provide more info.

As for your remarks on "pure", we've discussed that before in the Wendover topic. If you start a new topic on it, I'll certainly comment. Not here - it is not relevant for the topic. This topic deals with a probably "traditional" IRS able to beat pointers. Thats great news.

[Christiane Lohmann]

Henk, sorry to disturb any dreams of ancient bloodlines. The winning Glen Etive's Red Baron, newest FTCh. in SA is after a german bitch that was exported pregnant in 2003 and gave birth to 5 (?) puppies.

regards Christiane

[Henk ten Klooster]

Ah Sheantullagh Venon? Remember talk about winning SA red setters from her during last EC in France, Italians were very intrested.

There was mention of a strain started in the twenties on those SA websites. Maybe the owner does have some other bloodlines.

Well if not, he sure has good lineage, but not broadening. Its a huge success to win in those fields with those rules beating best of American Field pointers.

And it does prove an old saying: pointers are running machines, setters have the brains. Ok, at least this time...


.

[Henk ten Klooster]

No South African:-)

[Henk ten Klooster]

Enjoyed Venon lots in Poland, theres still a few pics here of those times somewhere.

At the time there will still heydays of working Von Royals (Germany). Their co-breeder Andreas Jockwig organized for the Irish Setter Klub Deutschland trips to Poland for training & trialling, attracting setterfanciers from Austria, Denmark, Germany, Holland, Belgium, France. Sometimes around seventy or eighty setters on fields fenced around hotel areas!!! Plus socializing parties for owners in the evening.

There were CACITS to win from several countries and thereafter the European championship was held. Some reds were able to beat top English setters and pointers like Irmuns May Jasmine a Charly von Royal daughter). A few weeks ago I had the pleasure to hunt with old Jasmine and her owner. Venon was trained there in just a few days, partridge in abundance.

Those were the days of Moanruad Buckaneer, Moanruad Best Chance (yes, the best) and some fine offspring of top Irish setters like Charly, Chico and Cherry von Royal all in one litter. Nowadays most of them are in top winning French Irish setters, in backregions of pedigrees.

Around departure of Venon the dominance of the working Von Royal kennel came to an end, training & trialling trips as well, the EC is still run.

[Renata Berlińska]

When those trials were? This year we haven't had trials with water work yet, they start in October. I'm also interested about this dog, I'll try to find more information.

[Renata Berlińska]

Gennadi, it's possible that the people from Ukraina was talking about my Fokka...Although she took 8th place in general classification (38 dogs were starting). There were field tests for young dogs in Piotrków Trybunalski two weeks ago, I was writing about it in my blog. Diploma from such tests is obligatory for breeding qualifications in Poland but doesn't give working certificates, CACT, etc. There were two GSP from Ukraina. Fokka (Lohmann's OTTER-FOKKA) got 1st prize diploma, was best setter and during the prize giving ceremony judges told some warm words about her field and water work, so maybe your ukrainian friends thought she got higher place. If you are interested in polish IS with good working results, I can give you some names.