Are dogs too expensive?

[Christine]

In Germany an officially bred setter with FCI/VDH-documents costs about 900 € up to 1300 €. I wouldn`t get myself a dog without such documents (for many reasons) and so I would always pay that price. What else should I do...
I know breeders whose dogs (labradors) cost 1400 € and 1500 €. It`s the regular price for a brown labrador (they are "en vogue" at the moment, that`s why they are so expensive). I cannot decide if these prices are justified, as I´m no breeder and I don`t know how much it costs to bring up a litter (stud dog, vet, food etc.)
I know many people who bought their dogs at breeder`s who don`t breed officially, that means the dogs have no FCI/VDH-documents and cost 400 € to 600 €, people who bought their dogs at breeder`s like this to save money. I don`t have to mention that I think it is totally wrong to support these breeders. But I think the large regular prices "force" some people to do so. Don`t you think that puppies with documents are too expensive and lead people to socalled breeders and other obscure sellers?
Don`t get me wrong: I would never support any other breeder than one whose dogs have documents but I`m worried that these large prices help the wrong, if you understand what I mean...?

[Philip Hall]

Sorry but my reply is going to be a bit short, business calls.
I think I'll take some of the first comments by Ursula's tongue in cheek because i do agree that following standards is a pricey business and love of the breed far far more important.
All our Irish have come from good, loving and well respected breeder or Irish Setter Rescue.
We have also had contact with dogs and bitches from so called PUPPY FARMS, usually the one's used as factories to produce pups and I'm affraid my thoughts on the people who run these places are not printable here.
I will close for now but my eye has just been drawn to Melinda's last comment;

Perhaps if pedigree dogs cost more, people might give them respect they deserve?

or does this just push more and more people to the type of breeders I personally despise.
It's a very nasty circle. The true lover of the breed will always be there but so will the others.

As to 'Are dogs too expensive' The answer has got to be NO. Love, companionship, trust and many other words have no price.

I'll stop now or I'll just keep waffleing on. Later tonight I will read the above replies properly.

[Christine]

I know people who bought their dogs that have no papers and paid 400 € and less just because dogs with papers would be too expensive for them. I think that this is a dangerous way of thinking. And I´m not just talking of the diseases these dogs have.
Apart from that, and no one has to justify, it`s everyone`s own cup of tea: When you have a litter with eight puppies and sell each for 1400 €...Don´t tell me that there won`t be a cent left for the breeder. I know breeders (of different breeds), some of them have four bitches and three litters a year, one stud dog... it IS a business, breeders are no saints! BUT: It`s okay for me, although I´m not Tina Onassis I will (hopefully) always be able to afford a dog with papers. BUT: Some people may not and what they do is they go and buy a cheap whatever from a backyard-breeder.

[ursula wilby]

Christine, the way it works that there HONESTLY is no money left after a fair-size litter is like this:

You can not just look at a bitch ready for mating and what happens after that in an economic sense.
You must take in to account previous losses. I do not think there is a serious breeder around that has been able to use all the puppies they have once chosen for future breeding.

I have myself had to have a bitch put down before I could ever breed from her.
This was due to a operation of the anal glands gone wrong.
When she was put down, she had been x-rayed and was OK, she had been shown and was in champion-class obedience.
All this cost a lot of money (not taking in to account time and dedication) to achieve.
So all that has to count as a loss.

I have also bought in a brood-bitch that ended up getting run over by a train at the age of 9 months. Another loss in many more ways than the economical one.
Way back I imported a setter from England, he started moving very badly and got worse and worse...turned out his hips were just about the worst that the vets had seen. He was put down at the age of 11 months.

I have also kept quite a few bitches for future breeding (but that have lived with other families) that I have disgarded for one reason or another. Up until the time I have decided one way or another, I have paid for their insurance. Most of these bitches have been disgarded due to me keeping two bitches from the same litter (one staying with me and the other being placed in a family). I then thought that my own bitch has been the better of the two, and have used only her.
So that means no income from those puppies and only money being spent on them. The "un-used" bitches have been given to the familys for free.

Also I have had a few instances were my bitches have been mated but have not produced any puppies. Yet I have taken the bloodtests before all the same, I have traveled to the stud-dog and then perhaps paid for a scan just to make certain that what I suspected was actually true.

All the instances (or money losses) above have to be taken in to account when you look at what is left after you have paid all bills for your current litter.
I am convinced that there realy is no money in breeding dogs.

Unless of course you cut corners, use bitches you perhaps should not have...or go for cocker-poos...etc...no check-ups of breeding-stock, no follow-up...nothing.
Or if you go to the puppy-mill side of it, where bitches that have had their last litter are being put down as not to cost any money.

Im sorry I am harping on about this subject...but I do come into contact with quite a few (non-doggy) people that will ask for the price of puppies and then ask how many I had in the litter...and I can see that they are multiplying these figures and arriving at a totally false conclusion. :-)

[Christine]

If you have five bitches and two stud-dogs for example, there will be some money left believe me.
As I already said I know breeders with such constellations and the do earn money. It`s not a shame! There`s nothing bad about it!
And by the way, Ursula, it was you who mentioned the phonecalls with the buyers, their visits etc. It is actually very difficult to charge a phone call, isn`t it? Does this mean you charge like: 20 minutes cost this and that, visit cost this, coffee that. I´m exaggerating of course, but this is in fact a mather of discretion if we`re honest.
And excuse me but how are you going to charge a dog`s death economically? Can you say how many litters a dog maybe have given to you if it had`n`t died?
Wow this is getting difficult! Not only grammatically.
Let`s finish this. I KNOW from breeders who are my friends that there is some money left and there`s absolutely nothing wrong about it. And if a dog with papers would cost three times as much as mine did I would buy it anyway as I would never support any backyard-breeder.

[ursula wilby]

Of course I dont think about phonecalls etc in an economical way...neither visits etc. but rather as time-consuming if you have a large litter.

As for dogs that die, I dont think about what they could have given but rather the cost of keeping them, showing and competing what I hoped would be a future dog used for breeding.
I do think this should be taken in to account as well.
You would in any other business!

Perhaps I should mention that I at the most have had 4 setters and at the most one litter a year. Neither have I( appart from once) had more than one "active" brood-bitch. The rest are oldies or perhaps a youngster I am hoping to be able to use in the future.
And my calculations are based upon this...being a small breeder but trying my very best to get the best results. So far I have had 22 litters, and I do feel that I have some insight as to the economics of being a small breeder.
Appart from one bitch, that had 4 litters, all others have had between 1 - 3 litters during their lifetime.

[Kristina Brannlund Westin]

You really took the words out of my mouth Ursula! People asking price and the number of the litter and then stand and count up how much money we earn:-( Makes me really upset! You also mentioned the dogs that we aren´t able to use for breeding. I have been there severals time. I will also keep them at home because they are a familymember, and even if I can´t breed them, I love them too much to place them somewhere else.
I usually try not to count how much money I spend on dog food each year, but by accident, I was, and it is breathtaking sums of money, I promise you, especially as I use a good and of course more expensive feed.
Now, I don´t meen to sit here and whine because I pay gladly that much for my dogs to have the best, because they are the best that ever happend to me, but there are many aspects to include in the costs of dog breeding.

[Melinda Auld]

I agree with your sentiments, Philip. But I meant more about encouraging buyers to respect their dogs - rather than asking breeders to jack up the price, or to make millions from every litter ;-)

Let's face it - people respect money. They also associate an expensive item with quality. Perhaps to a public ignorant about ethical breeding practices, that $2500 cross-breed in the pet shop window means quality? I suspect this is often the case. Too many times I have heard people boasting about how their pom x chi x cavoodle x whatever cost them thousands. Most people I speak to are absolutely shocked when I tell them my pure-bred, health-tested, show champion dog cost less than AUD1000 - including freight from interstate. And I can guarantee he was home-reared, by a loving breeder. And he was kept with his mother until he was 8 weeks of age. And he was wormed, vaccinated and microchipped. And fed an excellent diet. I have the photos to prove it.

Now, we know that ethical breeders put thousand of dollars, hours, love and care into the rearing of their puppies (and their parents). And we know that most pet shop puppies come from puppy mills where the bitches are bred into the ground and the puppies receive absolutely no care. But does the general public?? I don't think so. I am still horrified when people proudly tell me they got their dog from a puppy farm - and it's no easy job to convince them that a puppy farm isn't a lovely, sunny green farm where puppies run free in the hills, either! As far as they're concerned, the price of the pup is the guarantee that the poor little thing was well-cared for and raised appropriately.

You have to admit, it's confusing. Hold up a $2500 cross-breed next to a well-bred, health-tested, hand-reared $750 pedigree pup...and Joe Public may well be justified in asking what's wrong with the pure-breed. Especially when they've no doubt seen those damaging documentaries like the one put out last year by the BBC. Or read any number of unfounded news stories, or heard reports that cross-breeding lessens the risk of unhealthy puppies etc... Most people would do no more "research" than that, when looking for a pup. It's a crying shame for the breed, and for the good breeders out there who are desperately trying to do the right thing by everyone.

How do we rectify this problem? Obviously, making pedigree puppies more expensive is not the answer! Nor, I believe, would any ethical breeder really wish to be selling their puppies for thousands of dollars. I'm sure most breeders would give them away for free if they could be guaranteed their beloved puppy was getting the BEST possible home and would be loved, respected and cared for until the day it passes. :) Puppy millers and backyard breeders, on the other hand, care only about the price they can get for the pup. If they can bang the word "rare" into the advertisement and add another 0 onto the end of the price, they're happy. And the tragedy there is that people will PAY!

Education is the answer. But how do you educate a public whose bottom line is always going to be the dollar sign?

[Angela Roberts]

The price of well bred, well reared puppies is not high enough especially in this day and age where some people are breeding some very peculiar cross breeds, calling them a fancy name and charging more for them than people who are breeding pure bred puppies whose parents have been health checked and are registered.

Philip, I had already written this before I read your last comment but will post it anyway.
Hundreds of responsible breeders would agree totally with Ursula's list, it’s just that she has put what we all think and know into print. So why do we do it? The reason I do it is to continue into the next generation (I only have 1 litter from each bitch so only do it once every 2 or 3 years) and to have a puppy to show (and yes it does make a difference if success is with one you've bred yourself). We have no control over the size of the litter and I would have liked smaller litters each time I have bred to make it a bit more enjoyable and a little less hard work and stressful. Knowing both of the people who bred your dogs I am sure they would have 'bothered' doing all of this too to get their own homebred puppy to show which has also enabled you to own what I know were 2 well reared puppies. The surplus puppies to the ones we want to keep still have to be looked after well and good homes found and yes pet people as much as they are valued are a pain when it comes to them coming to visit far too often to see the puppies, their visit is usually a result of a ‘lets pop in to see our puppy’ when out for a Sunday afternoon drive but for us it is usually in the middle of feeding, picking up poo or cutting 216 little claws (a litter of 12) or worst still when trying to get a meal for my husband! Rearing the puppies is hard work but it has it's enjoyable times too and I have made a few new close friends from my puppy buyers over the years.
Also although no one can guarantee the health and age span of a dog they sell those people who buy from puppy farmers possibly end up spending even more if the cheap puppy ends up with all sorts of health problems and spends lots of time at the vets.

[Astrid Landsaat]

I have another question, how do you recognize a responsible breeder? Seven years ago I paid 700 euro's for my pedigree dog. Before I bought my puppy I asked the setter club if the breeder was reliable. They answered breeder was reliable. Nowadays I have bills of her medication and specialists of 2000 euro's per year.

[ursula wilby]

Astrid,
Dogs in that respect are rather like people.
All parents hope for a healthy baby, and rather expect this.
But then life is not like that.
Babies get ill and so do dogs.
If you were to have 10 babies in a row, it would be close to a miracle if all grew up to be healthy men and women. Lived happily until they were about 90 and then died peacefully in their sleep.

I will turn 60 next year, and thinking back, I have lost lots of friends and relatives due to illnesses etc. This is a part of life we have to accept, how ever difficult it is.
Yet in some way people feel that when they buy a puppy, it should live a long and healthy life, visiting the vet only for shots and nothing else.

Quite right, pedigree dogs are tested and checked before breeding and I dont think there is a serious breeder that deliberatly sets out to breed unhealthy puppies.
Yet we all have to deal with the ups and downs that life consists of. Both humans and dogs get ill, is all part and parcel of life.

[Astrid Landsaat]

Ursula,

I think I have to explain something. My girl is an epileptic. 3 1/2 years ago I found out that her grandmother was an epileptic as well. Is it okay to breed on with the offspring of an epileptic? I know that this breeder at least produced 3 litters with epileptics in it.

[ursula wilby]

Astrid,
No I dont think it is right to breed from the offspring of an epilectic dog.

But unfortunatly EP is in the breed (and other breeds too for that matter) and the course is difficult to pinpoint.
As this is not one illness its almost impossible to safe-guard yourself against it. Not breeding from epilectic dogs stands to reason, but that in itself does not remove the threat. Its not as easy as that.

I feel very sorry for you and your dog for having this problem.
And I do hope you are managing to keep it all under controll with medication.