Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[kristi schrittwieser]

Eva you take some happy pills because you are nasty. I am fully aware one had a heavier coat and 2 had shorter coats. You are constatly insulting me with your sharp tongue. All three were coursing dos. The first were imported to UK some were used as herding dogs and some were used as guard dogs. I answered a question from another post as to do I think Afghans are thick. Do I feel US setters are dumber then UK setters. Are there other countries with dogs that have flighty gates. I will give you an article later I have no time for your last comment. You are a know all and you are not able to properly debate. Look at the previous posts nd see why I included Afghans. Maybve you should take some anger management pills because you are a real fighter. I am going to work I don't have time to be nasty. It is niot what I'm about. Look at there country they are never in the house and off lead all the time .HA HA. And you never said anything about the gate or head or hair that hasa shown up on the American setter. Or whether or not the show IS is considered a smart dog in UK. Have a lovely dqay Eva because you went way off the subject. But then again you absolutely know all and you are quite aggressive about it.

[eva ciechonska]

Oh Kristi, Kristi, I do my best to discuss what I know, I have left your comments on working dogs to those who know a hell of a lot more about them than I do. I have left your comments about IS in the USA and what breed they bear resemblance to those who have seen them. I ask questions and many times I get it wrong, unlike you I am prepared to admit this, Funnily enough I seldom get angry, but from many of your discussion points I see you do, the last comment being the most telling, I have already said I am not spoiling for a fight and was surprised you even offered the question.
If you are determined to have the last word at all costs, even when it becomes abusive then please feel free. You are of course entitled to your own opinion, forgive me if I don't think much of it, certainly where it encroaches on the Show IS in the UK. The rest can be debated between you and AN Other. Please come over to the UK and see for yourself before you pass judgement. There were many UK breeders in the 1980's who did exactly the same as you are doing but with the American IS. They had not seen them either. That was just as unfair. Art critics do not criticise works of art from looking at pictures or videos or reading articles.
Interesting that you mention the hair that has 'turned up' on top of the IS heads in the US because I remember what we term as the 'tatty head' on UK show dogs in the early 70's, it was just plucked out then, no one showed any concern for it. The UK dogs do not move with a prancing gait so I bow to your superior knowledge..I think with regard to intelligence, those who live with show and working dogs would be in a better position to answer that one and I believe Margaret has already responded to a similar question in relation to temperament. My pure show bred dogs are constantly surprising me.
As for afghans, I have re-acquainted myself with Margaret Niblock's book 'The Afghan Hound - A Definative Study' and have asked a couple of my afghan friends and they confirm the Tazi, or Arabian Hound could be almost any plains hunting hound, and there were many different types, so I got it slightly wrong there too. I do kind of feel that as they have the Breed they would probably know better than you or I. The two recognised types that all afghan enthiusiasts affirm are the Bell-Murrey (plains) and the Ghazni (mountain), imported in the 1920's who form the ancestors of the modern day afghan as we know it. I do find your points about herding and guarding surprising as sighthounds were prized and treated on a par with Arab Horses, but then I am sure you know best.
Hope your fruitful day at work helps you to calm down and in the meantime I will turn my attention back to the topic in hand and try to avoid you as best I can, unless, of course, you stray into my field of knowledge.

I apologise to everyone who has tried to stay on topic and accept all your abuse.

[Cheryl Gorey]

"Other then the long coat again I don't see much of a difference between UK and US setters. Neither look like the original dog. The only one that does are the field dogs in America."

Living in Australia and seeing the American Imports come into this Country there is no way that I can agree with you that the UK and US setter are "Not much of a difference between them". This is very far from the reality we see here. The coat is definitely different, as is the gait, changes in angulation in the shoulders and the rear, and also the high tail carriage. The heads were very narrow and lean, but improvements are being seen in some lines.

I am also surprised by the comments that the field dogs in America look like the original IS from history. The photos I saw a few years ago of the American field dog looked more like a Vizla than an Irish, but perhaps they have improved their dogs of recent years and hopefully improved them to be more like the dogs of the era we are talking about.

Breeders of field types in all countries, UK show and US show types have a responsibility to breed true to type. In the show types, we have certainly seen a much bigger split between the two show types than anything other. There is a lot of speculation about the cross breeding of IS and the Aghan breed in the US type, whether there is any truth to this, we may never know. If it didn't happen, what breed mate selections created such swift changes to extreme structure, head and coats of this type? As for the field types, there are breeders who prioritise the hunting ability over and above all other traits and therefore, there is drift in structure and head from the original dog! So, we see extremes on both sides... field and show!!

[kristi schrittwieser]

Hi Cheryl, I think show dog is much better in Ireland. Here are some video I found I will add them.
American dogs look much like red setters in UK? The main difference is the high tail and shorter legs. But they are racier they are crossed with ES. They look absolutely nothing like Vizslas. that is really far from reality. I don't have a video of them but I'll send you photos. First -- US feild dogs that were imported to a man in Norway.

http://www.brophysirishsetters.com/tales_from_the_field/more_scott_...


Ireland IS working dogs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ax9TqGOxSk


Crufts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lecGKXeRlrg


US AKC lol, U guys win in this category I could find video but it is AKC site. I am sure the show exagerates the gate more.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/irish_setter/photos.cfm

[kristi schrittwieser]

Gennadi,
I totally understand that. In African field trials IS's cannot have a high tail. The setter people spent years trying to bring back The IS. If you look on the NRSFTC site you will see a pedigree list that goes back to the 70's. The dog was a complete mess. Without the hunters this breed would only be a show dog in the US. They still have a long way to go. They still don't have many dogs that can keep up with the Pointers and ES's in the field. In the US the Vizsla is now considered a minority breed on the field. There are less Vizslas competing in trials then IS's, They are mostly breed as pets. Every other person you see has a pet Vizsla. Just because they are pretty. The Pointers were mixed with the ES to get a high tail. and speed. The GSP's were mixed with the Pointer for speed and stamina. If you look at the of US GSP field trial dogs the majoity of the dogs have incredible amounts of white on them. No one could keep up with the Field trial ES in the seventies. Now the Pointer is the big winner.

[Cassie Allen]

I do not know what trials you have been to but in the mid west there are many vizsla trialing and they are very good at what they do. As far as keeping up with the pointers and english in the field my irish may nt run as fast but they get all the birds they have passed by!!!! And if all you are doing is looking at the tail you are looking at the wrong end of the dog.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Gennadi which Blacksmith do you mean? There are two Blacksmiths, even the recent Irish book confuse both, in fact nearly most writers have been confusing both.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Eva I have read my breed history. The setter came from a number of crosses. And I don't need to explain myself. Why don't you read the health issues of all pure breed dogs. SMeaning show bred. Seems like many people dont like working dogs on this site. Isn't that where everything began. Next accuasation. According to Lar she stated she has seen one keenel with some sharp dogs to make a generalization that all working setters have aggression issues isn't right Where are you getting this from. Read in The Irish Jounal and Joannes posts that the heads have changed, how did that happen. You are unaware of that. I can find your post about the puppy mill. You said right out you still haven't told us what a puppy mill is?
According to Lar shes never seen health issues in working setters ? How many duel Champions have you had in the last 10 years in the UK.
Again I never said you weren't a good breeder and you don't love your dogs. You are repeating that in every post. By the way looking at different point of views from different people is a good thing not a bad thing. There is no need to react.....

[Ossian]

As we Scots say..... away an behave!!!! If yer spoling for a fight ye've missed it. We had that on page three!

[Pat Aldridge]

It appears that the protagonist in this instance hasn't yet grasped this :)

[JOANNE]

This has been a very healthy discussion, however, I feel individuals are missing the main points being raised. I am lucky enough to have been entrusted by some superb breeders with their pick bitches and dogs from litters. Now my heart is and always will be with the IRISH style of setter. But to improve my lines I have a superb little lady in my kennel originating from the Kirkavagh line in the UK and some beautiful dogs from American lines. Nuela moves like a dream, has a stunning dark and straight coat and that nicely shaped head, SO if I can obtain a dog like this from American lines why does a large majority of the American lines have appalling breed points and move like Afghan Hounds?. Shall I be bluntly honest because exhibitors cannot see further than the length of coat and whether the dog is showy in the ring. I was once told by a fellow exhibitor " the most important criteria for a show dog is the ability to show and conformation is a bonus", what a lot of twaddle surely it should be conformation first and the showiness of the dog a bonus?. As I say I have both types of Setters in my kennel the European lines and the American and I hope I do not offend anyone by this statement but if you read the breed standard line by line then I am sorry but it is the European lines that are closest to the standard. My American line girl is lovely too but she is from old American lines that were superb and nothing like the type that are in the show ring nowadays and that is such a sad sad day. As I said in previous comments the judges have a huge part to play too and I have witnessed Irish Setters being placed as best in show that are the total opposite from what that judge has in their own kennels, HOW THE HELL CAN THAT BE?.

[Melinda Auld]

Ignorance of anatomy, cowardice, and politics. Simple as that.