Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[Ossian]

You see that and he thinks its hug time but I know that his Uncle Fergal would not want to be hugged in public LOL its not MANLY!!

[Margaret Sierakowski]

This is getting completely off topic! Time for a change of topic heading.

[eva ciechonska]

No ladies, not a change of topic heading just start another topic............I for one enjoy reading members going off at a tangent occasionally, just goes to show how varied conversation can be about our much loved dogs. Incidentally I wouldn't trust mine off the lead in public places and I do agree with Finn, it's part of the spirit of the IS, the wicked, devil-may-care nature and the way they take the piss that typifies the Breed, though in saying that, I used to run my dogs on Richmond Park when I lived nearby and they did pretty well with the Red Deer and the sheep that were let to roam in those days....... I used to meet Vi Thorne Baker who would get on the bus from Kensington where she lived and come down to Richmond to walk her ShCh Spruce of Andana with my dogs.........You could only take dogs on the upper deck of the London double deckers and she was in her 70s........wonderful lady!!
Henk, very interesting article on the 'shower of hail'........is there a hard copy I could obtain though I suppose I could download and print this one but there is nothing like reading an original article. Incidentally, is that a photo of you...........very nice!!

[Henk ten Klooster]

Henk, very interesting article on the 'shower of hail'........is there a hard copy I could obtain

Sorry, not here, Eva. Maybe one of the people on this website still has one for you? It was a few times reprinted, one in Irish Decider. As for the pic, correct.

Did you note aspects of conformation in Hartsbourne Flame? Like coat, length of fringes, bend of stifle, hocks etc? This setter would typewise probably be able to compete in field trials! Agree?

[Ossian]

You would need to check with Margaret but I dont thinks so!

[Henk ten Klooster]

Fantastic piece of history, Rosie!

Reminds me of the Ames Plantation next to the Bird Dog Hall of Fame in Tennessee. Ames had eighty setters. Isaac Sharpe had 450, when he died in 1938. Most were pointers and English setters. Irish setters played a minor role for him. Still a few of those influenced the breed like it is nowadays.

As the internet is quickly filled up with historical documents, it might be we could compare all aspects of this topic in winningest Irish setters in near future. You contribution is in timelines, where according to most experts movement in show winning Irish setters was still okay.

In timelines of this topic in the eyes of more experts (for the UK: Rasbridge, Nagle) movement degenerated. More winningest IRS in shows were mentioned of those days as ideal in all aspects like Ch Menaifron Pat O'Moy and Ch Menaifron Jim O'Moy.

Did indeed movement degenerate and if so why was that, if not why not? Is indeed -like suggested- the time right for an official division of working and show IR(W)S? Or not - could both worlds learn from eachother?

[Ossian]

Sharpe, along with Robert Chapman, played a very large part in the history of the Gordon Setter (not just Pointers and English)at the end of the 19th and early twentieth century.

As you can see from the newsreel the Gordon was classically a "weight bearing hunter" appreciated for its weight, power and stamina in the conditions of the Scottish grouse moor. The dog was bred for specific work in specific conditions as I imagine that the other Setters were.

A certain amount of evolution is recognised, although Sharpe was apparently very strict about what entered and left his kennels. He had a clear eye for his objective (something I think many of today;s breeders could practice more assiduously)

In UK all of the clubs associated with the Gordon breed are held to account by the Breed Council and they do try to work for the welfare and common good of the breed.

Other countries however very often have a different perception of the breed. those who show want it to look "flashy" over blown, heavy coated and smooth on the move. Giving rise to over extended stifles.

Just as guilty of promoting change are the working element who want the dog to be smallish, lightweight and carry the tail high in the manner of hunting dogs. Neither of these groups have taken heed of the "mother club" standards and I think this is sad.
My point is that it must be the same with all setters and I think if you take a breed from its natural environment - because you like it - and then you change it to fit your conditions. What have you achieved??

If the breed needs to evolve then fine but if those in the breed want to "devolve" for their own ends!!!! I think we should never agree to that

[Carmel Murphy]

Very well said Evie!! What you say applies to the Irish setters too(cannot speak for the English or Red and white!)

[Henk ten Klooster]

There were a few pvte e-mails informing about nowadays influence of Irish setters bred by Sharpe. To answer them one in all, the book Waldemar Marr wrote provides you a lot of interesting information including possible English setter crosses.

That book does not provide the answer as where the influence is now. It is via Ch Brigand Of Usan. It runs via the Sharpe bred Stylish Wedger, Boyne, Colleen of Wendover and Garnett O'Murrell to Brigand. He is in most show Irish setters nowadays especially via Am Ch Kinvarra Mollie of Gadeland.

So there is a big chance that you see a forebearer of your IS in that classic movie!

[Margaret Sierakowski]

"the Gordon was classically a "weight bearing hunter" appreciated for its weight, power and stamina in the conditions of the Scottish grouse moor. The dog was bred for specific work in specific conditions as I imagine that the other Setters were."

But since Isaac Sharpe's time, the conditions have changed. Even in Scotland, the grouse are fewer, and the dogs have to range further and cover more ground to find birds.
In Ireland the situation is far worse, the grouse have been decimated, and its not uncommon for only one or two finds to be made during a field trial with thirty or more dogs entered
In these conditions the big slow heavy dog cant compete with the smaller faster dog. However well trained and however good the bird handling of the heavier dog, if it cant cover the ground, it isnt going to find the birds.
Its the same with the Irish Setters. I've heard Eppie Buist (contemporary of Mrs Nagle) saying that Mrs Nagles Irish Setters wouldnt be as competitive nowadays because they wouldnt have the necessary speed to cover a lot of ground. Back in the 1930's the dogs could have found birds at walking pace. That is no criticism of Mrs Nagle's superb dogs who were great in their time. But conditions on the grouse moors have changed

There are still some bigger heavier Gordons running in field trials, but they struggle in deep heather - one sees them running with inefficient up and down movement, rather than the smooth movement and level top lines of the smaller lighter dogs at a gallop You will note that the successful dual Gordons of people like Jane Osborne are more medium sized dogs

But I'm no expert on Gordons, and Evie knows far more about them than I do!

[Rosie Dudley]

Hello Margaret, to return to the subject matter, Mrs Nagles dogs were still around in the sixties, so is what you are saying, is that you do think that the conformation and capabilities of the working Irish Setter has changed since the sixties?

[eva ciechonska]

Is it possible that the requirements for the working setter have changed. They are now smaller, leaner, faster so conformation has been adjusted accordingly.
Is it because there are fewer birds or because the dogs are required to find them at speed. Margaret says that "if it can't cover the ground it isn't going to find the birds". Is it possible that if it covers the ground too fast it could miss many birds which maybe a slower, more thorough dog could find. Could I dare to presume that the smaller, faster dog could be required to be "flashy" in it's work?