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Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini

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Christina, thanks for that. I did think after I had just entered the question that your response would be the likely one. The only other thought would be through trades discription but again, it probably would not be worth the time, cost and effort.

Blimey this comment has ended up nowhere near where I wanted to put it.....!!!!!!!!!!
Eva,
How you can say you haven't been nasty to me on this sight is beyond me. Look at your responses to my posts. I have never disrespected you in any way. I said the show dogs of UK are much better dogs then IS show dogs here. You told me to take happy pillsetc. If thats not nasty what is. I am not a nasty person. You need to back off. Its not right.
Kristi, youe initial comments about the UK show dogs were not complimentary in any way. You lammed into them as you lammed into the US show dogs. You lammed into the UK show breeders. You hit the ground running. Your tone was, to put it kindly, accusatory and unrelentless. You had to have the last word regardless. You could not expect me to react in any other way. Christina had to pull you up as well. Now you are back tracking.
All I ask of you is to debate what you know. Of course there is much to be gleaned from reading books and articles, looking at pictures and watching videos but non of this substitutes the real thing. Just a small example. There was a comment recently about the rings at Crufts being small. Infact the reverse is true but the point was made by someone who had only seen Crufts on videos.....do you get my point?
Gosh Kristi, there has been much heated debate on a multitude of subjects. You think I haven't been jumped on by other members. It happens all the time.
Happy pills or a good bottle of wine........maybe that would not be such a bad idea..........help you lighten up a little.
Great idea Susan, I hope you have been indulging in a bottle or two while feasting on the great displays of football from the World Cup, any matches near to you, SORRY TO DEVIATE FROM THE TOPIC :)))))))))))))))))))
Deviation is a good thing....in more ways than one!!!!! I am jealous too Jo.......
Oh Eva as I sit here in my house warm though it may be, the wind whisling across the fields and the rain lashing against the windows I too would rather be indulging in several bottles of wine, warm weather and most importantly good football. Roll on Monday morning very very nervous :)))))))))))))))))))))))
LOL we've been deviating all over the place here for weeks!!

I have been reading the last few days mails and I am just a little worried about some of the language in some posts.It feels like posters are writing comments they have "heard" second and third hand, Pictures of dogs are appearing that the poster obviously doesnt own. Comments are being made about very large bodies and they are casually less than constructive. When a discussion has gone on as long as this people dont always remember the whole thread but someone reading from the outside will find cause to complain.
Do be more careful about what you say and who you talk about
Dear Ossian.........very diplomatically put and oh so true. Lets all drink to that and carry on watching the footie.........bad game for us on sunday (monday in OZ). Hope this time we conquer out Nemesis.
You are right though...the original point of this Forum is the last 50 years..........Henk has lost interest. The developments of the show dogs, whether good or bad, have now really been done to death but the discussions about the changes to the working dogs are very interesting and I, for one, am learning much from the experienced working members input so I think there is still mileage in the old dog. Maybe, at the end of all this a member from each side could summarise, steep call I know, but jumping through nearly 50 pages takes as much time as contributing.
Its about time we moved on to a new topic, this one has been done to death
Something less controversial , like "Are dog shows bad for dogs?"
Just kidding :))
Wow you guys!!! I have been away for 3 days and I can't believe there are about 10 pages of comments!!!.
Lar, absolutely not my intention. It has never crossed my mind that the breeding of IS in Ireland would be in any way shady. Yes I have taken comments you and others have made but I have not changed the words nor have I implied anything, I have refered to them and I have asked questions. You are attributing statements made by others to me. I did actually answer you on June 20th to that effect. The situation hasn't changed. I seem to remember that you pulled Margaret up on points she too had made that you did not agree with. I refer you to contributions made from June 19th.

Reference your opinion of the breeding of IS for show, you have put on record your disagreement to it and that it holds no interest for you
With all due respect to Henk's thought-provoking question, I am wondering whether it might have been more relevant to have asked has the breed IMPROVED since the 60s? No one will ever win the argument as to which type, which lines, which coat etc is best. People like what they like. And frankly, if a canine controlling body is happy to register a dog as a pure-bred Irish Setter, regardless of which breeds may have gone into that animal's pedigree in even the immediate past, then debating what a REAL Irish Setter here is almost pointless. Take the argument up with them, or don't.

However, what lovers of each type should be looking at is whether the breed, as they see it, is improving with each generation. If the field-type lovers aren't getting better and better working dogs, then they've failed. If the show type lovers (UK/US/Aus etc) aren't getting healthier and lovelier show animals, then they've failed. If they're willing to overlook serious conformation faults in place of showiness, then the "healthier" part of that will soon let them - or rather, their dogs - down.

If breeders never touched another Irish Setter, but the breed continued to mate naturally - what type of dog would come out in the end? Hopefully, each generation would become better suited to the demands its environment placed upon it. Those that didn't come up to scratch would drop out of the gene pool. That is natural selection at work.

Breeders have the opportunity to subvert this ancient process, forgetting - at times - that it is necessary.

So...has the breed IMPROVED (in every type) since the 1960s? If the answer is no, then debating the breed's future is a waste of time.

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