Take care ! breed standard respect in France

[Cathy Forster]

I would like to draw your attention to the irish red setters judgments in French shows. Especially I would like to draw your attention to the French Irish setter club, the red club’s practices and their bad influence on the French judges. History repeats itself !

I went to Lyon’s international dog show, the last 5^th June, and took part in with my dogs under the close observation of the red club’s members and its president. My lovely Cotton Candy obtained 1. Place in open class with the qualification excellent and excellent comments. After, she was immediately ejected before the final judgment (for the attribution of the CAC and the CACIB). I was asked from the judge to leave the ring.

Why ? (I cite the judge)

“My bitch is too tall. She cannot obtain the CAC and this are the directives of the red club". Cotton Candy measures 60 cm but this day she was measured 61.5 cm. Her height is OK with regard to the irish red setter FCI breed standard !!!!! but it’s not OK for the Reb Club who’s limiting the height at 60 cm !!!!!

Of course I was disillusioned and in disagreement but the only thing to do was to send a complaint to the French kennel club, and that’s what I did. I’m still waiting for an answer !

The Red Club doesn’t respect the FCI breed standard, in disagreement with the FKC, the judge was influenced and doesn’t respect the FCI breed standard, even when it was an international dog show !

It’s unacceptable and I want to warn you because a lot of you are coming to the next French championship and to the World dog Show. What can we expect ?

Please, pay attention to the judgments.

Herewith my letter and a foto from the club's directives !

[Henk ten Klooster]

Carmel, your reaction shows selective anger. In most of UK IRS dominated FCI-countries, showjudges show no respect for Irish standards (height).

 

France is a medal turned upside down - a minority. That is with good reason, if a show only Irish red setter will start dominating, that could end one of the last succesfull working cultures in that part of Europe. Just like it happened in other countries, like mine where little H*****s were succesfull in exterminating any other Irish red setter type and their fanciers than the type they saw as the Ubersetter, providing us with a lot of diseases because of inbreeding. 

 

With commensense, respect for other views, healthy comments from two sides, debate like this could bear fruit. This is not the case here, some people known themselves for censorship etc. use terms like dictators  and do not check the other side of the story. Let's be honest, an Irish setter really up to the standard (like French CACIT and CACIB-winnng Apache) has in most cultures no chance at all.

 

Why not protect interests of working setters in one of the few cultures where they can survive? This is in the interest of a healthy future for our breed. We will need input of all Irish setter families worldwide and fanciers to protect our breed from getting extinct. If we start communicating with quality this could prevend bombing bridges ending up in a USA-situation: work one side, show the other and war inbetween meaning to hell with all of us.

 

And what is my opinion on this topic? Cathy, if you visit a show in France organized by the Red Club you know what you can expect. I know that for all of the shows in my countries and neighboring countries where the opposite view is dominating. So its simply a scene of politics, start enjoying freedom in fields and anger goes with the wind, your setter will enjoy this!

 

 

      

[Susan Stone]

Yes, Henk, lets just throw ethics overboard.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Sorry this is not understood, Susan. Do you mean dogsports=ethics?

[Susan Stone]

Henk, no that is not what I mean.

You say to Cathy: "If you visit a show in France organized by the Red Club you know what to expect."

You implicate that influencing a judge is all right as long it is done in a country where field sports are still respected. I do not agree, you can not throw ethics overboard and accept this kind of ignorance. And before you lash out defending the French (who can do that well enough for themselves): not in France nor anywhere else.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Hello Susan,

Politics in shows is documented here tops. For example how to exterminate a Hartsbourne type of Irish setter. Ofcourse I prefer a world of ethics, thats why my world is under wind, sun & clouds faraway. If you want to win a show, just select your culture. Denmark is my favorite (Giulla's foreseen partner Theis won show and field, is allround hunting dog and appreciated pet). But my show is reality..

Regards, Henk. 

 

[Carmel Murphy]

Carmel, your reaction shows selective anger. In most of UK IRS dominated FCI-countries, showjudges show no respect for Irish standards (height).

None of my replys are in anger Henk!! I am very calm actually!

And the point here, has to do with a Club, who have actually changed the height standard instead of accepting the Irish Standard(FCI) so the Red Club does not respect the standard of the breed they say they love??? Seems like they are creating a new French Red Setter!!

[Henk ten Klooster]

Seems to me we now have a USA showsetter, a USA working setter, UK showsetter, Irish working setter etc. Well I like most setters but prefer last one. Is that the French version? Sorry getting confused....

[Astrid Landsaat]

If that is the case, I prefer the French version too.

[Carmel Murphy]

USA and UK do not follow the FCI breed standard and UK dont have a height standard, so are not included in this discussion, which is about FCI rules being ignored by a Club in France who feel they can rewrite the Irish breed standard to suit themselves!!!!! 

[eva ciechonska]

Henk you cannot compare the French working setter with the Irish working setter.  The French dogs are small, pitifully thin and have no bone and very little substance.  They bare little resemblance to an IS in type or conformation.  If we were to keep our dogs like that we would be prosecuted.  

If you cannot have a French title of Champion without a CAC at a 'Speciale de Race' then you can understand how important it is for an exhibitor to win at such a show.  But you have to win honestly.  For the Red Club to intimidate a judge sufficiently into awarding the CAC to a dog of their choice is both dishonest and unethical whichever way you look at it.  You would condemn this type of practice if it occured in the UK or in any other European country so why condone it here.  The same rule should apply everywhere, as should your criticism or approval. 

As for the superlative qualities of Apache des Sourcieres du Sancy well these were thrashed out in another Forum discussion.  He seems to be a dog apart from the exhibits shown at Lyon.  If more French working setters looked like him then no one would argue the point.  However they don't, or certainly none from the photos at Lyon.  If it ain't worthy it don't deserve to win!  And even if it is worthy it should not win like that...........

[eva ciechonska]

Henk....Politics in shows is documented here tops.  For example how to exterminate a Hartsbourne type of Irish Setter.....

Well the activities of the Red Club certainly document the politics in shows for they are the prime example.

The beautiful Hartsbounes died with Eileen Walker.  The true Hartsbourne hasn't been in evidence in years.

[Garrech and Canagan]

This is going to hurt me but I have to agree with Eva on this one! From what I've seen in Nord Pas-de-Calais the French IS is generally very small and in most instances very thin, working dog or otherwise. I've only seen the one dog that was the "norm" for me.

Yes one has to win honestly.

Yes the judge has to be honest in their opinion and judging the dog according to the breed standard more so than any influenced biased direction.