Conflict over COI

[Henk ten Klooster]

“A first step forward for future” is how the committee of the Dutch Irish setter club describes a proposal to forbid combinations for breeding with a higher coefficient of inbreeding (coi) than five. Reason is “a rise of inheritable defects” like epilepsy, showing a clear connection with COI above five. A group of mostly show breeders tries to prevent this new rule being accepted on the annual general meeting. They launch another proposal, maintaining freedom of breeders to breed above that maximum.
What is your opinion?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Ok Terry O'Leary for a bottle of whiskey you make me typing at this hour.

All IRWS (and IRS) have lines to Of Boynes. In Barney of Boynes whelped 1924 unofficial pedigree is the bloodhound and/or flatcoated retriever cross. This is currently one of the leading lines in studdogs in the UK. All stock there was based on Rheola-Of Boyne.

Native American setters are in all USA lines and those derived from them. Native American setters were a mishmash of Gordon-Irish-English setters. IRWS have descendants of either Hartsbourne Senor of Shadowood or Erinhaven Dennis Muldoon in their lines, both carry those lines.

You see, we forget quick.

So why make such a circus of many generations ago a cross to an English setter by the way derived from IRWS lines in the USA.

Well wheres my bottle of whiskey

[ursula wilby]

As a once-upon-a-time bloodhound-owner, I would just like to point out that: YES bloodhounds have GREAT noses.
But NO bloodhounds do not use their noses in a high position (once having found the track). In fact all those wrinkles are supposed to eliminate all else when tracking. Meaning that all the loose wrinkle falls forward and supposedly "traps" the scent (cutting out sight at the same time).

Yes, we humans have dreamt up some weird reasons for breeding in a particular direction :-)

[terry o leary]

Hello Henk Just Terry will do.You say Barney of Boynes whelped 1924 unofficall pedigree is the bloodhound and/or flatcoated retriever cross.Again I ask were is the evidence to substantiate these claims.On the other hand,I was a friend of Laura Dunne for nearly thirty years who was well known for her Mullencluain Irish Red Setters.I spent many a hour discussing IRS and IRWS with her and yes we did talk about the Boyne Irish Red Setters.The funny thing is she never said anything about any outcross in the breeding.So again I ask were is the documented evidence.Re Hartsbourne I have been working all night and I am going to bed,so I will get back to you on that one. You are not getting a bottle of whiskey that easy.PS I am still wating for an answer.Do you think Ray O Dwyer would use an American Red Setter to bred to one of his dogs.

[Henk ten Klooster]

We have a lot of reliable sources telling us this happened. To name just a few: bloodline-expert W.J. Rasbridge, C.S. Darley, author Waldemar Marr. Conclusions of last one are in O’Dwyers book as well. Last even explains on that basis why certain characteristics are in some strains. So yes Gennadi no proof, but on the basis of sources-analysis it is very likely...

The fact that Barney of Boyne is not in your database Gennadi only proves that your database does not have relevant information. As for more documented evidence, Terry O'Leary: a lot on this is quoted fully in the topic "need information about Wendover dogs". There are many more sources and even Jimmy James (Wendover) mentions doubts on those pedigrees in the "Wendover Story" as published in British dogpress.

If you want to see it all in a glimpse analyse “Irish Setter Show Champions in Great Britain 1947-1982 “, go to the back: Main lines of descent, pages 172 + 173. Follow the lines to the top: Beltra.The book states “pedigree unknown” although it was known. Later you see Oonagh of Boyne with the statement “the extension of the pedigree is doubtful.”

Relevant for this topic is whether or not purity exists. And whether or not it is wise to exclude a big part of Irish setters (like those in the USA and Scandinavia) from the genepool. That is what some IRWS people do, because of an outcross to an English setter in the fifties last century. That cross is documented very well. If you analyse extended pedigrees and count the number of times Beltra is in pedigrees and the number of times Illsley Chip (the ES from IRWS lines) is in, you can see Beltra is the one with more influence.

Facts above proves, there is only relative purity. These dogs are not just once in an average pedigree, but databases with all information will provide you figures with a lot of zeroes behind.

Further on, the number of Irish setters entered in an average extended pedigree be it IRWS or IRS for whom we cannot find any ancestors (unregistered) is enormous as well. Its not very likely all of them were from 100% pure ancestry. Whether or not they were real IS was often concluded by judging their conformation. But: there are fine specimen of red setters known conformation wise perfect, who in fact had a pedigree with a lot of English setters. So again: relative purity.

We are debating here as grown up people, who all see (one slower than the other) that the average coefficient of inbreeding (coi) in both IRS and IRWS is alarmingly high. Most genepools certainly those at the top have a coi way above what is considered to be a big risk for the health.

That brings us back to the topic. My conclusion: you better do what healthwise is wisest. It will not hurt your purity much, because that does not exist.

As for a healthy outcross: in the fifties it was called "Retrieving a heritage from a cousin". Why? Because the breeds that beat the Irish setter, all have something in common: they used the best blood of red and red and white setters to update their lines. Including pointers.

And they still beat us....

[Christiane Lohmann]

We have a lot of reliable sources telling us this happened. To name just a few: bloodline-expert W.J. Rasbridge, C.S. Darley, author Waldemar Marr.

Please do not mention W. Marr as a reliable source, when it comes to Irish Setters.
He was a great character and expert for pointers. He could tell a good from a bad setters...but he was never that interested in IS to go deeper into details.

If you have any sources that confirm your opinion about him being a reliable source in IS history story, please hand it over, as I am just working on his biography.

[Henk ten Klooster]

A lot of authors use his book(s) as a source, latest Raymond O'Dwyer in his "The Irish Red Setter Its history, character and training".

As for "reliable" this is in Irish setter circles relative. So read reliable as relative reliable. As far as I know there were no trained historians active in our breed.

Personally I would place Marr high on a scale of reliability where he deals with reports in his own time (he had IS as a youngster) simply because he is a direct source. Very low where he deals with other stuff and makes quite a few mistakes.

It is not within parameters of this topic to discuss relative reliability of all authors on IS, but it could be refreshing to do so... So if you start a topic on that, I will contribute.

As far as the Of Boyne crossing or not scene, there are that many relative reliable sources with different backgrounds (the line discussed is the direct tail male line of Rasbridges Watendlath Joao O'Pandy and later Wendovers) saying essentially the same.

So even if you would strip Marr, enough sources are still there to arrive at a conclusion.

[Henk ten Klooster]

PS I am still wating for an answer.Do you think Ray O Dwyer would use an American Red Setter to bred to one of his dogs. wrote O'Leary

I think he would not use an American Red Setter to bred to one of his dogs. Because in his mind, a breed once outcrossed to "other pointing breeds" (quote from his book) is changed forever.

But in his own lines a lot Of Boyne blood is in. Contrary to his countups of how many times Palmerston or Charleville Phil or Young Phil is in an average pedigree, he does not do that for Beltra.

Conclusion: it does not change breeds forever.... That is exactly what the Scandinavian pool teaches us. Bring in some American, cross back to old Scandinavian and you get the best.

Just like European IRWS or IRS, "American Red Setters" have strains differing a lot from eachother. You have the horseback trialer, the walking trialer and those are worlds apart.

I have for example a USA bred bitch that is if you analyse extended pedigrees could be more "pure" than the average Irish working IRWS or IRS.... And way back there is the same material that founded the best female line of descent in Ireland during Nash days (Sulhamstead Natty) see the book.

Her strength is, I can even mate her to a heavily inbred winning Irish setter in France and arrive at a safe coi. Subsequent selection brings me as well the type I want. Or color.

So I guess upon close analysis of extended pedigrees, not all (in case of ongoing outcrossing) but certainly quite a few of American Red Setters would be selected by wise Irishmen.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Henk wrote

"I think he (Ray O'Dwyer) would not use an American Red Setter to bred to one of his dogs. Because in his mind, a breed once outcrossed to "other pointing breeds" (quote from his book) is changed forever

So I guess upon close analysis of extended pedigrees, not all (in case of ongoing outcrossing) but certainly quite a few of American Red Setters would be selected by wise Irishmen.

The point is, Henk, nobody (with the possible exception of one IRWS owner in Ireland) wants to have American field reds in their IRWS pedigrees. And the cross bred IRWS in the US are not recognised or registered as IRWS by the AKC, so cant be imported, registered or bred from in the UK, Ireland or Europe. The only way they can be brought into legitimate IRWS pedigrees is by illicit breeding and falsifying pedigrees

Of course there may be a few people who think they are being clever by doing just that. The rest of us are not impressed and wouldnt touch suspect dogs with a bargepole

If I were to get involved with crossbreeding to widen the gene pool, I can tell you straight, it would be with an open, honest planned programme , sanctioned and controlled by the Irish KC and breed club, or possibly with the Red Setter Club of France involved, and it would use only working red Irish Setters of impeccable Irish origin, with outstanding field trial records, A grade hips and no known hip dysplasia in the pedigree , preferably PRA and PPC tested, of good type and colour compatible with IRWS type and colour

And that wouldnt encompass Harry. I have no wish to offend Harry's owner , but Harry as far as I know has B grade hips and a grandmother with severe HD, and is from Sheantullagh breeding. Again no offence to Ray O'Dwyer who breeds some great FT dogs, but they tend to be small and yellow rather than red, very different from IRWS type and colour.
As an IRWS Harry is a rather small and less than average dog for type and conformation, and I believe he has ticking? We have better FTCH dogs in IRWS already, why breed to something less good?
Sorry to be less than complimentary about Gerard's much loved dog, but I'm getting irritated to the point of being more openly critical than I would normally be about somebody's else's dog on an internet list
I still dont know what Harry has had in the way of FT wins and placings, in regular field trials - winning a stake for IRWS in the US with two dogs entered and the other one was a show dog, doesnt exactly impress me :))
I'm just tired of the promotion of Harry, to extent that I probably now have an automatic negative reaction when his name is mentioned. Other than Pallas Green Harriet, where are the rest of his offspring, he sired litters in Ireland where they were registered, I know of only one person who has a puppy from them (not running in trials or bred from as yet). Where are the rest ? IRWS people were not exactly queuing up to buy them .
Even with a well planned and sanctioned outcross programme, breeders involved could have difficulty with selling first and second generation puppies, a lot of people wouldnt buy them. So not something to go into lightly.

If you think you know better, Henk, I suggest you get yourself an IRWS and start your own outcross programme, and show us how to do it. I believe you had a few problems with the Dutch KC over your red American import, but perhaps you have learned from that how to get round the difficulties?

Personally, I prefer to play by the rules when it comes to dog breeding, which may be boring, but at least in the end we all know whats in the breeding

[Henk ten Klooster]

That hits, it shows as well why Harry (Irish/Danish) is a great contribution for IRWS. He is in fact until now the only one complete in line with this report but not with IRS. Details on Danish dogs and the IRS scene were in topics before.

[Henk ten Klooster]

At last time to reread minutes of the Irish Red Setter Club about a need to outcross. Their choice was in 1993 the Danish genepool because "They had no infusion of Irish blood for over fifty years".

Another quote "This exchange is vital as we are all aware that our existing genepool is very small. This scheme will increase our narrow pool and will allow breeders greater scope in future".

Thanks for that link http://www.huntpics.ru/data/505/breedreport.jpg

So this is again showing (we talked about that in other topics) that the Irish already at that time (1993) knew the need for broadening. Why did it not happen????

As well some time to study other posts in this interesting topic. Good to see pictures of results of crosses in Russia yes reading experiences with them must be intresting.

Gennadi as for your last post - you are deadwrong in that one. More times I've told here what my plans were and you can read them on www.Iersesetter.com click the English flag next Born for Adventure.

Apache is certainly on my list of favorite dogs, but choice was Urtis who scored in both EC and WC plus in Ireland as well. Both are winners of a style prize for IS showing the working standard of the IRSC most close.

Indeed near to all working IRS I know there are closely inbred, information provided in this topic and others. My setter planned for Urtis has no relations with him until 8 generations back. Means very low coi. Inbred versus non related inbred makes low coi. You will know that, but more people read this topic.

As for all posts a request: please stay within parameters of the topic. Some readers cannot follow the debate here anymore.

[terry o leary]

Hello Henk Ray O Dwyer wrote in his book THE IRISH RED SETTER on page 50 in regards to the Boyne Setters"There was no proof that he had outcrossed,but suspicions aroused at that time have never been dispelled.I suppose not to many would have voiced these suspicions at the time,as it is much safer to slander and defame a persons good name when they are dead.As I have told you Laura Dunne was a friend of mine,she was also a close friend of the Carbery's.Laura spent many hours in their house discussing the dogs and their breeding with them.I asked you for not just stories or theories handed down but actual proof.Re Hartsbourne Senor of Shadowood,I believe this dog had PRA and was not bred from by most Irish Red Setter Breeders.I dont believe he or Erinhaven Dennis Muldoon are in any IRWS pedigree.Re American Red Setters I know the Irish Red Setter Club would not recommend breeding to them,nor does the Irish Red and White Setter Club.I cant see that changing in the future.I am still waiting to hear about my import with the Dutch lines.Sorry no bottle of whiskey.

[Dee Rance]

I may be wrong but Erinhaven Dennis Muldoon was an American import and did he not have a question mark over him as being the animal that brought back PRA I don't know only hearsay, no proof.......I am probably wrong so will apologise if I am...